Tender Out For Unifil APCs

Chaiseri 4X4 lineup, the Av4, the reconnaissance First Win 4X4 and First 4X4.

SHAH ALAM: Tender out for Unifil APCs. As hinted in previous posts, the Request for Bids or the open competition for new APCs for Malaysian contingent in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has been published today. As expected not much details has been released via the Eperolehan website though those interested to contest for the competition must attend a briefing on 7 October at the Perolehan division office at Wisma Zetro in Wangsa Maju.

A Guardian with Malbatt peacekeepers at a riot control training. The Guardian manual turret did not appear to be fitted with a gun.

As for the tender itself it is called “MEMBEKAL, MENGHANTAR DAN MENTAULIAH KENDERAAN PERISAI(KP) ARMOURED PERSONNEL CARRIER (APC) UNTUK MALBATT 850” .

The 20 4X4 vehicles will be commissioned in Malaysia as the delivery address is at the Batu Kentomen facility in Kuala Lumpur.

IAG Guardian displayed at Weststar booth at DSA 2018 equipped with a RWS.

The specifications publicly available.

There is a requirement for the Malaysian Armed Forces (MAF) to have a dedicated AWV 4×4 for peacekeeping operations to serve in the United Nation Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). The vehicles shall be tough and robust capable to operate in temperate and Lebanon terrain environment with four (4) season weather. Materials used shall be new and free from defects, which would adversely affect the performance and the maintainability of individual components or of the overall assembly. Unless otherwise specified here in, all equipment, material and articles incorporated in the work covered by this specification are new, unused and of the latest model.

Nurol Makina Ejder Yalcin 4X4 armoured displayed at the Deftech booth at DSA 2018. The vehicle is now being offered by NADI Corp Holdings Sdn Bhd.

I have been told that seven vehicles have been tested locally for the above requirement though the technical specifications stated that suitable vehicles that had been trialled locally or at the country of manufacture could be offered for the competition.

An Army Lipanbara 4X4 vehicle.

I have also been told that the vehicles would be equipped with a RWS unlike the Guardians APC already procured for Malbatt 850 contingent already. The Auditor General was unhappy with the lack of RWS as detailed in its most recent report although the decision to not equip them was made after Malbatt experience in Lebanon itself. The Defence Ministry did not offer a robust defence of the decision however.


— Malaysian Defence

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28 Comments

  1. So auditor general gets to decide what is good and what is not for the army?

    As for the specifications. If that person who is doing the specifications works for me, I would have thrown that document into the bin.

    zero facts and figures.

    At least give something like the TLDM multi purpose boats.

    4×4? what size? A 4×4 can be an armoured 4×4 hilux to a 20 ton 4×4 armoured truck!

    Tough? how tough? What is the measurement for tough?

    Anyway IMO just do a follow on order of the Guardian Extreme and be done with it.

    Reply
    The detailed specifications will only be given out to the companies that have personnel attending the briefing on 7 October

  2. So how do you decide if you want to go for the briefing?

    It is like someone saying I want to eat, but without explaining what he/she really want to eat. It can be anything from icecream to alpaca steak for all i know.

    Why can TLDM do a proper writeup for its tender, but not tentera darat?

  3. … – Anyway IMO just do a follow on order of the Guardian Extreme and be done with it.

    Agreed. No need setup new operation maintenance and spare parts.

    Unless they thought Guardian is not up to their expectations. Then we will see a new type of APC 4WD.

  4. Just to be fair. The AG did not decide on what to equip the armoured vehicles. What they are commenting on are the facts. They match the requirements of the UN, what has been ordered n delivered n the end result.
    Thats the AGs job. They never decide .
    They audit n find the truth to ensure procedures are followed, our money well spent n protect our interest

  5. With RWS eh? I wonder how the Lebanese would take to this ‘betrayal’ for trusting them these many years of friendship.

  6. The guardian was exactly what the army ordered. Just because the AG find a UN list of reimbursement of an armed APC that is higher does not make the guardian not suitable for use in UNIFIL. There are plenty of other nation APCs in UNIFIL duty that is equipped similarly to the MALCON Guardians. The very fact that the AG commented about soldiers dying because of the need to put their heads out to shoot (when actually soldiers can perfectly shoot from inside the vehicle using the multiple gun ports) is a tantamount of trying to decide what is good and what is bad for the army.

    It also doesn’t help when the army did not give a proper reply to the AG (is there no competent army person that attended to the audit?)

  7. The answer to this issue,is simply look into ATM inventory,what type of armoured 4×4 that is commonly use,built up from there,anyway most of the posters think ATM should be having a uniform armoured 4×4 vehicles,easy for maintenance,logistic and what not….why suddenly the change of heart wanting to buy another new beast to be added to the rojak inventory of ATM…..we stay focus and things will get better with hi quantity of 4×4 to be issued to any units…indirecly ATM is helping workshop all over malaysia,sabah ,serawak if ATM wanted to….there are lots of ways in assisting these small woekshop n logistic warehouse lessening the burden to the ATM maintenance base….

    Reply
    There is also the argument that the government should not be rewarding the same people all the time. In this case if the government simply put an order for extra Guardians a lot of people will shout loudly as well. As for the maintenance yes it will be easy to just farm it out to any workshop but again this will also have some problems. If the Army just used Hilux it will be easy but they don’t. Some of the trucks need specialists to maintain them

  8. @ marhalim

    A military contract should not be seen by anyone as a “reward”.

    The military should be given an equipment that is fit for the task, and if that means getting more of the current equipment, that should be the thing that they are getting.

    IMO there should be an open tender for getting new equipment that is not in the inventory of the armed forces. If the stuff that you need is just more examples of the exact equipment you are currently using, then just issue a follow up order for the same thing.

    Reply
    It is seen as a reward if the same people got all of the contracts all of the time. This was the case when DRB Hicom was the preferred supplier to the government agencies including the military.

  9. Sir thank you for the inside view of ATM,but lets play will this school of thought..” we pay so much in the present inorder to pay less in the future”
    ATM n the civilian group must work out something and iron out issues in order to make it a win-win situation for both ATM n civilian . Fine example the indonesian AD…they are using hilux chasis to built MAUNG their 4×4 armoured vehicles n in the future maybe wirh even bigger engine n parts easily accessable from any workshop all over the country…we have KSSB..and what not supplier and logistician maybe it can be franchised who knows… Just to throw sketchy ideas n hopefully if its fine tuned could be a succesful impementation.

    Reply
    As for the Indonesian example it must be noted that the vehicle was only developed recently. As for companies its easy to set up one but getting good people that is the hard part.

  10. … – “(when actually soldiers can perfectly shoot from inside the vehicle using the multiple gun ports”

    I won’t wade in the AG/OWS discussion as it frankly doesn’t interest me but I will comment about the gun ports.

    Yes troops can “perfectly” shoot through them but unless the vehicle is stationary or moving very slowly and unless the targets are very close, not moving and are the size of barn doors; whether they actually hit what they’re aiming at is another question. Shooting through gun ports has long been found to be very inaccurate.

  11. … – “A military contract should not be seen by anyone as a “reward”.”

    No contacts should be seen as “rewards” but unfortunately as part of the deeply flawed and self defeating system we have in place; heavily driven by political factors in line with the system of patronage; contracts (military or otherwise) are awarded to companies not based on merit but other factors (the list is a very long one).

    This is exactly what I mean when I keep harping on the need for deep fundamental changes; needed in almost everything we do to undo years of deeply ingrained flaws in the system: from how we go about procurement, to the role the local industry plays; to our very attitude towards defence. The previous deputy Defence Minister spoke about the need for such changes.

  12. Somebody mentioned PINDAD Maung…

    IMO that is, as it is right now other than purely for nationalistic purposes, are a waste of time and effort to develop. Currently the vehicle is to be bought (500 units) mainly intended for TNI-AD officer use.

    If you want a vehicle to have easy spare parts source and can be repaired all over the country, just get a Hilux from the toyota showroom, paint it green and be done with it. The Maung has practically no difference in performance to a standard Hilux.

    http://i1.wp.com/asset.kompas.com/data/photo/2020/07/15/5f0f063e15690.jpg

    It is not even R&Ded by PINDAD. PINDAD subcontracted the development to a 4×4 workshop (FADWorks by Daniel Zebedeus), that just build a new body by freehand. Which is fine for a one-off vehicle, but will be a nightmare to produce and maintain for a 500 vehicle run, for example the body panels will be custom build for each Maung, how do you do spare parts for such a thing?

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GB_T3yk6_og/XxY-3pQiu3I/AAAAAAABNxs/eElCJtkvg1kiQdxpMaczmbKX0kiuTSTbQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/3642363065.jpeg

    http://beritawawancara.blogspot.com/2020/07/disinilah-lahirnya-prototipe-pindad.html

    Other is some technical things that you just dont do for a production vehicle. The deep offset for the wheels for example. Fine as a quick method to get a wide track, but will be very hard on the wheel bearings due to the loading offset, and will cause premature wheel bearing failure.

    Then of course there is the malaysian army GK-M1 aka the Transformer II. Yes it is also a different body on top of a Hilux, but it is properly developed as a production model, with mass produced stamped body panels and produced on normal automotive assembly lines. It is not developed purely for malaysian army, so production tooling costs are already paid for by the original developer, Thairung. As it is also sold to the public in thailand, spares availability are to be expected.

    https://www.malaysiandefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/btdm6.jpg

    https://www.autospinn.com/2020/09/tr-transformer-ii-80419

    https://www.autospinn.com/2020/07/review-tr-transformer-ii-9-seats-79848

    https://www.autospinn.com/2020/09/tr-transformer-ii-80440

    On getting good people. We have tons of good automotive engineers and architects that are more than capable to do something like the transformer, if the volume is there and is to be sold to the public too.

    @ azlan

    Yes, of course using gunports are inaccurate. But I am commenting on the AG notion that the Guardian is “dangerous” as soldiers need to put their heads out to shoot, when the Guardian as it is has multiple gun ports that enable soldiers to shot out from inside the vehicle without needing to put their heads out.

  13. change the deeply flawed ways we do our defence procurements, but not with similarly flawed “all things must be through open tender” way of doing things.

    Open tender is not the cure to all the bad things in our procurement process.

    Military procurement has and will have plenty of other external influences, whether we like it or not. We need to juggle with the actual needs of the services, diplomatic links with foreign countries and their military, developing in country military industrial capability and needing the big amount of money spent to benefit the local economy, and people at large. All this while trying your all not succumbing to the lure of corruption.

  14. …. – “ change the deeply flawed ways we do our defence procurements”

    The system is so rotten and flawed that almost everything – in addition to how we manage procurement – is in need of a major revamp.

    … – “Military procurement has and will have plenty of other external influences, whether we like it or not”

    That’s a hard fact.

    In this country unfortunately things have gone way beyond accepted levels. It’s so deeply Ingrained in the system and is reflective of the country as a whole. Not only do we not allocate enough for defence and have a deeply flawed and self defeating policy with a tendency to repeat mistakes of the past;
    what cash we have is not being utilised optimally. The result is what we have now …

    … – “. But I am commenting on the AG notion that the Guardian is “dangerous”

    I’m aware of the context in which your comment was made. My comment was a solely on the issue of gun ports.

  15. “There is also the argument that the government should not be rewarding the same people all the time”
    That is the problem when our country and people became way to highly politicised that every decision will be critiqued, and politicians from both divides are angling to shout about everything. It doesn’t help that both sides are equally balanced and any influence one way or another could tip the balance (see Meridien move). This is the malaise of Malaysia today, damned if you do, damned if you don’t, double damned if anyone decides to cut the crap and push thru.

  16. @…
    “if the volume is there and is to be sold to the public too”
    I don’t think a Malaysian-developed Guardian equivalent can be sold to the public.

  17. @…
    If the tender is for APCs with RWS it is safe to assume the vehicle should be amoured to take small arms fire up to 7.62mm rounds. So why the talk about Maung & GK-M1 when neither one fulfill this requirement?

    Reply
    It was in connection with self reliance by another poster, nothing to do with the discussion on the UNIFIL mission

  18. Off topic Sir,
    I would really hope the ATM and PDRM would conduct in-house ENGLISH conversation course for their men in green n blue….this will go along way into their retirement age.
    Many complain i heard from x -men in blue or green ,that there are no upgradings during their tenure in service thus they were grappling in trying to converse in ENGLISH when woeking in Singapore.Ask them about why rhey quit. the answer mostly a BIG negative.
    Yes most of the rank of comissioned officers are fluent in english……just imagine 60 000 strong are not well verse in conversation english….so that speaks volume….

    Reply
    They have actually though I am not sure whether this is done for all ranks. Anyhow this is another problem facing the services which is technically not really part of their role. Language proficiency should be done in schools

  19. @RedSot
    English? Pfft! Certain segments are saying better to learn Mandarin and Hanyin Pinyin writing…. and that’s all they ever need to survive outside.

  20. English? Pfft! Certain segments are saying better to learn Mandarin and Hanyin Pinyin writing…. and that’s all they ever need to survive outside.
    Haha…..joke of the day… Good humour G.I joe..most chinese in the southern side are unable to speak mandrin,that is why mandrin is being promoted nation wide.
    Its a bonus ,if u are an indonesian or malaysian and u are able to speak english, fluently that means u can cari makan in english speaking countries.
    Oh forgotten about it…do u know that the southern neighbour national language is MALAY….ever wonder even how modern the southern neighbour is…SAF crest n POLICE force crest is written in what language…? Believe it or not it there as evidence.

  21. “ever wonder even how modern the southern neighbour is…SAF crest n POLICE force crest is written in what language…? Believe it or not it there as evidence.”

    Yes I believe most know that SG official language is Malay, but it’s not used in everyday life. You can try to talk to an average Singaporean and he/she would probably be more comfortable talking in English/Hokkien than Malay.

    I think it’s better to focus on the military related things in the comments and not stray too much into politics.

  22. @joe
    Hanyu pinyin actually refers to the pronunciation guide. Kinda like “alif ba” for jawi.

    I see no reason why ALL Malaysians shouldn’t be trilingual. It would surely give us an edge in attracting foreign investment. Imagine us being an industrial entrepot because we are able to be the middle man where East meets West…?

    Oh wait. Some other neighbour already took that position. Because hey, they are proficient in the necessary languages.

    @RedSot
    You’re like 3 or 4 decades out of date man. That whole nation is now proficient in Mandarin, to the point where you’re considered a redneck hick from the sticks if you speak in dialect.

  23. @ redsot

    Do brush up on your English fluency too.

    Anyway on the subject of English fluency, I do feel that our education system has regressed, concerning on the quality of English language teaching in our schools. Yes the grasp of the English language should be undertaken during schooling years, but classes for conversational and tactical english fluency should be a regular occurrence in the army, hopefully as routine as the numerous religious classes. If not for the whole army, at least for our 10para, mechanised and gerak khas forces that will regularly deploy overseas. There was some communication issues during the bukhara market incident when most of malaysian condor drivers and commanders have little grasp of english to communicate with the american soldiers.

    As for me, my conversational english is not as good as i wanted it to be, as i am more used to technical english terms and i am mostly in contact with other people that has English as their second language too. My range of vocabulary is not as wide as say azlan does.

  24. @RedSot
    National language in MALAY? Pfft! Try talking to them, they know Mandarin more than their national language. Perhaps the only words they know are their national anthem and road signs, plus spatter of rojak words here & there. Hokkien used to be the prevalent mother tongue there but its rapidly being replaced by Mandarin. Even our southern state bordering them are fast losing their grip on Mandarin. Even in Ipoh where Cantonese used to be king, the current young generation there today converses in Mandarin.

  25. Heard some chit chat that apparently now yalcin is the forerunner for this tender and not tarantula hmav..

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