You Better…

Malbatt Guardians armed with 7.62 machine gun during a recent firing exercise in Lebanon. MYJointForce picture

SHAH ALAM: Your better. Based on what I have been told on the Armoured Wheeled Vehicle (AWV) 4X4 tender for the Malaysian Unifil unit, I am of the opinion that it is most likely that the IAG Guardian and the Lipan Bara will be offered for the competition.

I will not get any confirmation on this of course as the competition is covered under many rules and regulations. The ruling also covers the winning bidder, so I guess we will have to wait for the ministry to announce it, likely in the middle of next year, if we are lucky of course.

Malbatt Guardians armed with 7.62 machine gun during a recent firing exercise in Lebanon. MYJointForce picture

Anyhow as I previously wrote in the Turkish Delights post, the specifications for the AWV 4X4 will be similar to the Guardians already in service with Malbatt in Lebanon. If that’s the case, of course, the Guardian and Lipan Bara will be eligible to enter the competition.

A Lipan Bara likely from the Armour School in Port Dickson at the Merdeka 2019 rehersal day.

Lipan Bara will not be offered by Deftech, as a result of the SPRM investigations last year. Another 4X4 vehicle already in service locally, albiet with PDRM, the Hanwha Barracuda 4X4 is another potential contender for the Lebanon duty. Hanwha had previously offer a 6X6 vehicle for the Arny’s requirements but for this competition, only a 4X4 will suffice.

A PDRM Barracuda operating in Sabah. PDRM

The South Korean 4X4 were purchased for the PDRM peacekeeping duties in Timur Leste and the vehicles were deployed in eastern Sabah during the Lahad Datu incident.

PDRM Typhoon. PDRM

Another PDRM vehicle, the Streit Typhoon is also likely another contender for the same competition. If I recalled correctly, PDRM only purchased two Typhoons about a decade ago. The vehicle is currently in used with the UTK.

Pindad Komodo. Pindad

As the requirements called for a 4X4 vehicle, another contender, PT Pindad, is unlikely to offer the Anoa which is a 6X6 vehicle. However, the state owned company may well offer – through its local representative, the Komodo 4×4. It fits the bill, on paper of course.

A digital camoed AV4 before it was renamed as the Lipan Bara.

The list above are not meant to be a representative of the vehicles lineup that that will be offered for the competition.

— Malaysian Defence

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Shah Alam

34 Comments

  1. Hmm… sounds like the Turkish offerings are a no go? It seems like only those currently in use by us would likely be considered (other than Komodo), or did I miss something?

    Reply
    No lah just the possible contenders for the tender

  2. the hanhwa barracuda is also based on unimog drivetrain parts, like the condors. PDRM PGA crews even called their barracudas “condors”.

  3. @ jaq

    Yes ours were bought from Shinjeong. There is actually 3 companies from korea that offers the barracuda.

    Anyway right now the sabah PGA armoured squadron is equipped with 4 Barracuda/S5, 4 IAG Jaws and 5 Shorland. There is a need for 36 more armoured vehicle for Sabah PGA in RMK12. Would that requirement to be partially fulfilled by passing the lipanbaras currently in Sabah to the police, and equip the 5 KAD sabah with Gempitas as per the cavalry regiments in semenanjung?

    Retired Condors would also be a good fit as a replacement of the aging GKN Saxons in PGA armoured squadron use.

  4. “just the possible contenders for the tender”
    My choice would be either Guardian or AV4 but only if they really matches up to the tender requirements amongst the best. We know the 1st batch Guardians were bought CBU but for this round of buy, would it be required to be locally build?

    Reply
    No

  5. Extremely off topic

    It looks like that there are about 30 nations that are already interested and wanting to know more about the Royal Navy Type 31e Frigate aka the Arrowhead 140.

    http://www.naval-technology.com/features/over-30-expressions-of-interest-in-type-31-babcock/

    The Type 31 would be a great complement to our smaller ASW frigates (gowinds or something else), a good replacement for our flagship task and replacement of the Lekiu and Kasturi classes post 2030.

  6. @…

    “As I said before, China once invaded and conquered by Mongolians led by Genghis Khan. If they think historical narrative can be used to own something now, please surrender and return all of China to Mongolia.”

    Exactly. The basis of China’s claim on the SCS is utter stupidity, and at times I really wish we could sink those blasted CCG ships and turn them to artificial reefs. But alas….

    “The Type 31 would be a great complement to our smaller ASW frigates (gowinds or something else), a good replacement for our flagship task and replacement of the Lekiu and Kasturi classes post 2030.”

    The current issues facing Gowind haven’t been resolved yet, and I am really doubtful that the gov, current and upcoming ones, will be willing to provide the funds for these. Unless the situation in the SCS deteriorates….

  7. “No”
    Oh lucky us that sound reasoning still survives in Government to refrain from going ‘local’ with such small numbers.

  8. Fine if there is a country that still uses rhe condor and upgrading it,its best we sell wholesale to them or donate it to them.thats the least of clearing the “house”…and ATM can buy a common chasis for all its needs..different variants with different outfit…

  9. @ chua

    Not a lot of pictures of shorland and ferrets nowadays. Although they are kept in operational state (can start and drive), they are rarely brought out for operational use. The older vehicles that are regularly used are the Sankey AT-105 and the V-150 commandos.

    this is a picture from 25 febuary 2020. Its in the middle.
    http://scontent.fkul14-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/88077808_3014922528567534_3254235087398502400_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=18P8SEHVNSgAX9yWJik&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul14-1.fna&tp=14&oh=ce797207cb43f6e2741158f923822564&oe=5FAD06F9

    another older picture. this is very different shorland configuration that i usually see.
    http://jinggofotopage.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/749de-mj4_6026.jpg

    @ ASM

    ” The current issues facing Gowind haven’t been resolved yet ”

    Post 2030 is still a long way off for a decision to be made, but still you need to plan from now for the Lekiu and Kasturi replacements, and having a fitting ship design to carry those illusterious names.

  10. Recent ops benteng 2020 operations on malaysia thai border using Sankey AT-105 (called Saxon by british army, PDRM was the first user in the world for this, getting it in around 1977. British army got theirs in 1983) and V-150 Commandos.

    http://scontent.fkul14-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/109952074_3412855615391388_4351730777612934271_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=uKjzju2pULUAX_uWzoT&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul14-1.fna&tp=14&oh=85ca5e63388e9ea93e0d424af2151466&oe=5FAD821C

    http://scontent.fkul14-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/109831515_3412856605391289_3716363970947459464_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=mI3O6tNW4EYAX82zAoX&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul14-1.fna&tp=14&oh=5cb4e630f49ac79356ff913714404e82&oe=5FAA130D

    http://scontent.fkul14-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/116453957_3412855175391432_4042466155788631323_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=z8CBSYAIHzkAX-gWxzh&_nc_ht=scontent.fkul14-1.fna&tp=14&oh=7218ee0773301cbc473625696617dec6&oe=5FAC3371

  11. @RedSot
    We have 200-300 Condors remaining so way too many to donate and probably too old for sale to others. The Condors are still useful with some modernisation for 2nd tier use; border patrols, Ops Benteng, bringing rear echelon troops to front staging bases, PDRM & RELA or converted for rear support use ie mount for SHORAD, mortar, other roles that has less chances of encountering enemy combat vehicles.

    Since we have so many I would even suggest TDM to contract out a few units to certain institutes and corporations for developing indigenous APCs based on Unimog as a viability case study & prototyping. This is purely to support local R&D efforts.

    Reply
    R&D on a chassis developed in the 70s ?

  12. on the shorlands

    there are 2 types in operation with PGA

    first is the normal one called ASC. With turret and rear section that looks like a saloon car.

    the second is called APC. it can carry dismounts, and no turret.

    A few already in museums, and i saw 1 in private hands.

    on the condors.

    no need rnd. if want to reset, just rebuild it to as new condition, with added comfort systems like better air conditioning, all round CCTV and rerouted exhausts so fumes won’t enter the cabin. All must cost less than a new hilux for example. If need millions like what deftech proposed, just forget about it.

  13. The whole idea is to do away with maintenance base n maintenance personnel in phases,all common chasis repair will either be done by local vendor or ATM link vendor( how..? It can be done…southern neighbour have done it….indonesia is starting..) we have to be adventures,ATM as a whole have been thru many failed projects so extra 1 wont it abit at all….

  14. Sorry, I mean new APC development based on the Unimog powertrain currently used by Condor. If the study proves viable and cost efficient, it could take a step further in production development with current Unimog powertrain.

  15. “R&D on a chassis developed in the 70s ?”

    @joe,i believe you’re familiar with latest offerings in our local market for trucks/lorries, any personal preference for chassis that fit the bill for APC of 2nd tier use? Nvr mind if you think its not possible with any chassis in local market.

  16. @…

    “How will Malaysia respond to this? I am hoping that we will have a closer military relationship with japan, and do more exercises with them.”

    We signed a few MoUs for greater military cooperation back when Mat Sabu was MoD. Here’s the link to about the story

    https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/whats-in-the-new-japan-malaysia-defense-pact/

    China is re-starting its bad habit of intruding into other people’s backyard. Recently a CCG ship encroached into Japanese waters for 2 days, allegedly trying to approach a Japanese fishing vessel. Probably trying the Indon method…..

  17. @RedSot
    Doing away the 200-300 Condors meant we need something else to replace it, so maintenance cost doesn’t go away with the retirement of Condors but merely transfers to the new vehicle chosen to replace it. And if you want to outsource maint done, something semi-civvie, like Unimog-based Condor or similar, is easier for civvie pomen to do servicing.

    DEFTECH proposal is sheer stupidity, brought on either by ego (because they are confident no one else will be given the job), an inside joke project, or half-heartedly done with super high price to deter actual interest (because they rather build new vehicles than refurb old ones).

  18. Condors as APCs has already fully replaced by Gempita, Adnan and MIFV in mechanised infantry battalions.

    The only remaining condors are used in Kor Armor Diraja cavalry regiments, mostly used in conjunction with the gempitas in a hi-lo mix.

    So the only thing remaining to replace is the condors in the recce/escort mission in the cavalry regiments.

    This IMO rather than going for expensive 6×6 IFV, the mission would be better served with JLTVs, which also uses a lot of civilian parts, like the Isuzu/GM duramax engine.

    on equipping other infantry battalions with apc, rather than going the condor rebuild way, i would prefer the KIA KLTV APC version.

    Condors retired from the army would be good fit to be passed down for PDRM PGA armoured squadrons, and the defence of airforce and navy bases.

  19. Chua – “Sounds amusing.”

    The police also received 90mm armed V-100/50s but never received the needed ammo.

    The PFF which was allocated it own area of operations during the 2nd Emergency received the same 81mms the army did but due to army objections; the 81mms were never issued and remained in storage. Before anyone asks; no they were never transferred to the army and in the early 2000’s there were plans to seek a foreign buyer.

  20. @nimitz
    It depends on one’s preference. If want to rely on civilian truck support structure, go for Volvo or Scania or Iveco. If the preference is more military, then Tatra (not to be confused with India TATA). If striding somewhere in between military and civilian, then Unimog it is. My preference is for Unimog as the series longevity is legendary and spareparts for much older vehicles still available (talking about drivetrain here). IMHO the Condors can be relifed with refurb on powertrain, changing out time-worn parts and simpler rewiring job. Older vehicles are much easier to do as you don’t have to play with ECUs, TCUs, BCUs and whatnot.

  21. “If want to rely on civilian truck support structure, go for Volvo or Scania or Iveco.”

    @joe, Japanese chassis not in your suggestion list. Anyway thanks for the reply and agreed on how to relife the Condor.

  22. @Azlan
    I could be wrong but wasnt there reference to disposal of 90mm ammo somewhere in past public records? Fairly recent… 00s I think

  23. @nimitz
    Japanese are an unknown since their pacifist stance had always limit what their products can do militarily in the past. Europeans have far more solid track record on durability, longevity, support structure, and you want these if you intend to use your vehicles actively for 20-30 years.

  24. Chua,

    No idea. It’s possible 90mm ammo was obtained and stockpiled but it’s a fact that the vehicles-units never received them. A number of police vehicles were also fitted with 20mm Oerlikons.

  25. Personally I have only seen 2 types of turrets on the PGA V-150, the oerlikon 20mm and the twin GPMG turret.

    http://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/s1080x1080/82572427_1112308785782402_8892877065444108713_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=102&_nc_ohc=u6mdMXwVVEUAX8jhLZW&_nc_tp=15&oh=cd8eaf4f7aae73e106db2f9f06af1565&oe=5F98DFB9&ig_cache_key=MjIzMzIwMTc5MTE4MTUyMzE0Mg%3D%3D.2

    The only 90mm MECAR cannons I have seen is on the army V-150s

  26. If I recall correctly Mecar was originally owned by American individuals who like several others based themselves in Belgium in the 1970’s to take advantage of the country’s laws which was quite flexible when it came to exporting stuff abroad.

    At one point Belgium was the known as the place for the “black market” arms industry; for dubious/dodgy deals which called for dubious/dodgy end user certificates. Mecar was originally intended to be a trading company for parts, ammo, etc but also engaged in some R&D.

  27. yes belgium is kown for where all the lord of war types of people made their HQ.

    This is also a reason why there was quite a controversy when we selected the SIBMAS in the early 80s, where journalists linked the SIBMAS with the south african RATEL.

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