SHAH ALAM: As expected, Eperolehan website has republished the ATGW-MR tender, the one that was cancelled a few weeks ago. For the latest tender, published on April 18 and closes on May 18, only the general statement was published. (A check on the Eperolehan website on May 20 showed that the deadline for the tender has been extended to June 1. The revision was made on May 17)
PEROLEHAN MEMBEKAL, MENGHANTAR, MENGUJI DAN MENTAULIAH ANTI TANKGUIDED WEAPON-MEDIUMRANGE (ATGW-MR) UNTUK TENTERA DARAT. Number: 18. There is a requirement for the Anti-Tank Platoon of Infantry Battalion to be equipped with Anti-Tank Guided Weapon Medium Range (ATGW-MR) which is capable to engage and destroy enemy armour and heavily fortified bunker at a distance between 2000 m to 4000m
This is in contrast with the original tender which published in the open portion, six pages of the specifications which Malaysian Defence edited for brevity:
There is a requirement for the Anti-Tank Platoon of Infantry Battalion to be equipped with Anti-Tank Guided Weapon Medium Range (ATGW-MR) which is capable to engage and destroy enemy armour and heavily fortified bunker at a distance between 2000 m to 4000 m.
Penetration Capability. It shall be able to defeat ERA and subsequently main armour plate at least 900 mm RHA with BAE to inflict casualty to crew and vehicle.
Attack Capability. It shall have Top Attack Mode and Direct Attack Mode.
Effective Range. It shall be between 2000 m to 4000 m.
Guidance System. It shall be Imaging Infrared (IIR) homing guidance with cooled or uncooled system to provide better imagery.
Warhead. It shall be tandem shaped charge.
Quantity of Missile. At least one (1) missile for each launcher.
Weight of Complete System. It shall be not more than 25 kg.
Guidance System. It shall have Automatic Command Line of Sight (ACLOS) fire and forget guidance system.
Reliability. It shall be highly reliable when used in any environment.
Observation and Launching Unit (OLU). Minimum 15 years.
Missile. Minimum 10 years.
As it is the latest solicitation looks very much a repeat of the previous exercise despite the lack of specifications. It may well be the same as the cancelled one though based on the basic requirement. Though I may concede new ones might be added to the latest solicitation or deleted. That said the new tender confirmed my guess that the original one was cancelled as the specifications were accidentally published. Hopefully, the tender will not be cancelled as with the previous one.
Apart from the ATGW-MR, another solicitation for 20,000 rounds of 30mm armour piercing fin-stabilised discarding-sabot tracer (APFSDS-T) ammunition was also published on April 18. The rounds are for use in the Gempita armoured fighting vehicle equipped with the LCT-30 turrets. The tender closes on May 18.
— Malaysian Defence
Regarding the 30mm, APFSDS-T. This is one of those that is qualified to be used with the Gempita GI-30 Camgun.
The gempita’s denel GI-30 Camgun with APFSDS-T could penetrate every armored vehicle in south east asia smaller than the MBT, including latest medium tanks such as MT Harimau and ASCOD Sabrah.
Could it be that some potential suppliers complain that the specs are too constricting & too detailed that only a couple few could meet all of them, and that the new tender has “loosen up” things so now they have a chance to go in and win? From the very specific requirements down to just “destroy enemy armour and heavily fortified bunker at a distance between 2000 m to 4000m” that is so general.
… – ”The gempita’s denel GI-30 Camgun with APFSDS-T could penetrate every armored vehicle in south east asia smaller than the MBT”
it can also penetrate certain areas of older less well protected MBTs; i.e. engine deck; rear of the turret, etc. Whether it actually gets the chance to hit certain areas of a MBT [which can hit further] will depend on whether the engagement is in unrestricted terrain [i.e. along highways; open areas such as paddy fields; etc] where engagement ranges will be longer and targets will mostly be faced frontally or restricted terrain [urban areas; plantations, etc] where engagement ranges will be shorter and targets will be engaged from various quarters.
“MBT [which can hit further]”
those with 120mm gun can hit further.
ELBIT 105mm gun on the sabrah has a range of 3600m, which is less than the GI-30 Camgun + nammo APFSDS-T, which has advertised range of 4000+m.
Then there is the rate of fire. Tank guns usually have a rate of around 6 rounds er minute. The GI-30 has a rate of 60 rounds per minute.
APS if if fitted usually has limited effectors. Would intercept the first few rounds shot at it, but not 60.
but 105mm have bigger amount of explosives, something 30mm rounds will not match.
… – ”Then there is the rate of fire. Tank guns usually have a rate of around 6 rounds er minute.”
MBT and light tank guns as you’re keenly aware are not rapid fire weapons.
Ultimately a auto cannon fitted on a IFV can penetrate certain areas of a MBT but it would depend on the MBT and the operational circumstances. Range or rather the ability to exploit range would also depend on the terrain. We also have to note that by and large the main function of a IFV mounted auto cannon is not to engage tanks; be they MBTs or light tanks irrespective of the fact that under the right conditions penetration can be achieved. A auto cannon would also be very useful in damaging or knocking out the optics and tracks of a MBT if it could get into the needed position.
the detailed specs suspiciously sounded like OMTAS ATGM from Turkiye.
At1k raybolt maybe?
Hulubalang:”The gempita’s denel GI-30 Camgun with APFSDS-T could penetrate every armored vehicle in south east asia smaller than the MBT, including latest medium tanks such as MT Harimau and ASCOD Sabrah”
First of all, we will not use IFV and tank head to head in any operation.
Many terms and conditions are required to make IFV can defeat even a medium tank.
Today medium tank armor are equipped with armor which can stand 30mm ammo. Even if 105mm fire rate is only 6 in a minute but one shoot is more than enough to blow IFV. Even if the latest 105mm has effective range of 1500m but it also equipped with GLATGM falarick which have range of 5000m.
In real situation IFV, APC and Tank are moving together. They complement each others.
“Today medium tank armor are equipped with armor which can stand 30mm ammo”
Can the MT Harimau or the ASCOD Sabrah do that?
To withstand 30mm shots, it would need to have NATO STANAG 4569 Level 6 armor. Both MT Harimau and ASCOD Sabrah does not have.
As I said many terms and conditions are required for 30mm IFV can panetrate even a medium tank.
Range is one important factor. I don’t think 30mm ammo can panetrate tank skin beyond 1 km. It has already loss some its kinetic energy.
If the tank applied with additional armor than the range is under 500m.
How IFV can get close undetected or the tank is not shooting first beyond 1km is also a big question.
Like modern IFV, modern tank also equipped with many tech so it is difficult to defeat a tank based on IFV 30mm rapid fire only.
@Romeo Unfortunately both Sabrah and Harimau were rated at STANAG 4569 Level 4, similar to Gempita. At that kind of protection level, even 25mm APDS can penetrate Sabrah and Harimau frontally
Plus, both is basically an overglorified IFV chassis.
Under specific conditions a 30mm round [and a 25mm round] can penetrate certain areas of a MBT and a light tank but ultimately the main purpose of a IFV mounted auto cannon is to defeat enemy IFVs and provide dismounted troops with direct fire support. Operational circumstances; i.e. terrain, infantry support and luck determines things. ; not engage MBTs or light tanks. Something people tend to overlook is that the AV-8 AT variants are intended to provide combined arms formations with an organic AT capability and not as independent MBT killers per see.
Note that 25mm rounds [albeit DU rounds] fired from M2 were able to penetrate Iraqi
T-72M1s in certain areas. Other examples of unforeseen effects on the battlefield were 105mm rounds fired by M60s achieving frontal penetration [on the glacis and turret] on Syrian T-72As in Lebanon and 90mm rounds fired by SADF Elands penetrating Cuban T-54/55s.
“even 25mm APDS can penetrate Sabrah and Harimau frontally”
No…frontal is the most difficult side to penetrate. It is the most armored and the slope shape will bounce the ammo. It will only give a scratch.
“Plus, both is basically an overglorified IFV chassis”
Sabrah is equal as SG bionix which initially was designed as IFV/AFV.
Harimau/kaplan tank is not.
Sabrah & harimau are likely the ADF & TNI version of MPF.
MPF are neither designed as a secondary battle tanks nor are a tank/IFV destroyer. It’s mostly there to provide organic fire support.
30mm weapons is meant to outrange & take out enemy IFVs armed with the more ubiquitous 25mm gun, some which are armoured up to protect against its own calibre weapon. To take out tanks & MBT, they rely on the ATGM.
What organic fire support? Both Sabrah and Harimau is put under the armored division of both filipino and Indonesian army instead of beign out under the motorized/mechanized division.
Yes. As mentioned; the main purpose of any IFV mounted auto cannon is to take out other IFVs and provide dismounted troops with direct fire support. Just like how a AV-8 AT variant should not be used as ana independent tank killer but as part of a combined arms formation; the primary purpose of any auto cannon is not to go after MBTs.
This was one reason the BMP-1 was considered revolutionary when it appeared; troops could fire from within [never mind that chances of hitting anything were slim unless the range was close or the target stationery] and the 73mm gun to take out vehicles and provide direct fire support.
Placed under a parent organisation for operational and administrative purposes but allocated to a sub unit when a need arises or organic to a sub unit within a division.
From what we know about the PA and the PMC; APCs/IFVs armed with small/medium calibre guns are intended to provide units with direct fire support [same rationale behind us getting Sibmas and Scorpion]; the case during the decades long fight against the NPA, MILF, MNLF and ASG; as well as at Marawi.