Five Things We Are Getting in RMK11

RMAF Beechcraft B200T MPA, M41-02

SHAH ALAM: YES this post should be the continuance of the earlier post. However as this is a defence and national security site I cannot ran a doom and gloom posts twice in a row. That posting will be next week.

Again, I am not claiming the items posted here are the definitive list. Far from it but I had always to try be as accurate as possible. I stand to be corrected of course. I may be accused of cheating by adding the LCS and Gempita but that is how the dice is rolled.

Five Things We Are Getting in RMK11

1) LCS

A CGI of the RMN LCS.
A CGI of the RMN LCS.

As the LCS started late in RMK10, it is obvious that it will be carried over in RMK11. From my calculations, some RM4 billion have already been disbursed for the project.

An early model of the LCS.
An early model of the LCS.

As the ceiling allocation for the project was reported to be RM9 billion expect the rest of the amount to be paid during the next five years or the five years after that (RMK12).

BNS/Gowind Frigate model
BNS/Gowind Frigate model

Furthermore, as the first ship is only expected to be delivered in 2019 and the rest in 10 months intervals, there is also the possibility that the allocation for the programme could be stretched out to RMK12 (2021-2026). This will be especially true if the programme is delayed due to various reasons. Lets hope it will not happen that way though!

2) Gempita (AV8)

Like the LCS, the national 8X8 project started late in RMK10, and the first vehicles were only started to be delivered within the last eight months. That however did not stop the operational deployment of the 8X8, now officially known as the Gempita though it was originally envisaged that initial operational capability to be declared by early next year.

One of the first production model Gempita, fitted with the 25mm Bushmaster turret.
One of the first production model Gempita, fitted with the 25mm Bushmaster turret.

12 of the Gempitas have now been deployed to Tawau since late January this year shortly after the vehicles were officially accepted into Army’s service.


I was told that the first unit to operate the Gempita, 19th RMR, will received its full allocation of vehicles by year end while the first vehicle equipped with the 30mm Denel turret is expected to delivered to its unit, an Armour regiment, any time now. In the meantime the variant fitted with the 30mm gun and ATGM turret is expected to be delivered by the fourth quarter.


Deftech, is expected to complete the delivery of the 257 Gempitas contracted within the next two years. Therefore like the LCS, funding for the project will be stretched out to RMK11

3) Light Scout Attack Helicopter

Following the Lahad Datu 2013 incursion, talk was rife an imminent purchase of at least six attack helicopters was imminent. and the Airbus Helicopters Tiger was supposed to be the prime candidate.

Airbus Helicoper Tiger displayed at LIMA 2011.
Airbus Helicoper Tiger displayed at LIMA 2011.

With a number of Army Air Wing’s pilots seconded to the French Army to fly on the Tigers everyone expected that a deal was foregone conclusion. However by early 2014 it appeared that the Defence Ministry had second thoughts about the Tigers and was looking instead at Bell Helicopters AH-1Z Super Cobra.

As if to counter the reports on the Super Cobra it was reported that the Tiger deal had been firmed up by the middle of 2014 but this time around it was supposed to be a lease deal. However by Lima 2015, all the talk of the Army buying or leasing attack helicopters had died down.

The MD530G that was displayed at LIMA 2015. Note the weapons fit.
The MD530G that was displayed at LIMA 2015. Note the weapons fit.

Instead of the gnarly attack helicopter, the more sensible (and much more cheaper) light scout attack helicopter became the mantra. And at Lima 2015, an MD Helicopter MD530G Scout helicopter was displayed. It also conducted flight demonstrations to VVIPS and some members of the media.

Boeing AH-6I
Boeing AH-6I

Boeing also brought its contender, another AH-6i albeit in a model form only. Both helicopters are derivatives of the Little Bird, the light scout attack helicopter which first saw service during the Vietnam war.

Industry sources have confirmed to Malaysian Defence that the light scout attack helicopter will be funded during RMK11. They however could not confirmed the numbers. It has been reported before that the requirement was between eight and 24. I will put my money that 12 will be procured.

4) MPA

CN 235 MPA of TNI-AL displayed at LIMA 2015
CN 235 MPA of TNI-AL displayed at LIMA 2015

During his winding-up speech for RMK11 at Parliament on June 15, Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein stated that among others, the Royal Malaysian Air Force will procuring MPA in phases. It was the only new asset for RMAF which he had stated during the speech.

Industry sources have since informed Malaysian Defence that 4 MPA will be procured. However there was no indication the type of MPA. I am assuming that the most likely candidate will be the CN-235 MPA that was displayed during LIMA 2015 by PT Dirgantra of Indonesia. The aircraft was fitted with the Thales AMASCOS.

Thales AMASCOS workstation on board the CN235 MPA displayed at LIMA 2015.
Thales AMASCOS workstation on board the CN235 MPA displayed at LIMA 2015.

According to Thales “AMASCOS combines a powerful tactical command subsystem with the latest-generation sensor suites to ensure the success of maritime patrol and surveillance missions from maritime surveillance (EEZ surveillance, fishing, shipping and drug interdiction), anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare, electronic intelligence (ELINT), joint littoral operations, search and rescue (SAR) and environmental monitoring”.

RMAF Beechcraft B200T MPA
RMAF Beechcraft B200T MPA

The AMASCOS are already installed on the four Beechcraft B200T MPA operated by RMAF. Two more systems were recently procured and are in the process of installation. The aircraft however is fitted with Telephonics RDR-1700 radars instead of the Ocean Master which was fitted on the CN-235 MPA displayed at Lima 2015.

RMAF Beechcraft B200T
RMAF Beechcraft B200T

A cheaper alternative will be the Beechcraft Super King Air 350 fitted with the same AMASCOS suite or the Saab MPA alternatives, the 2000 and the 340.

A US Border Patrol Super King Air 350.
A US Border Patrol Super King Air 350.

An over the top solution for the MPA requirement will be the Boeing P-8 Poseidon and Japan’s new Kawasaki P-1 MPA (below).

Kawasaki P-1 MPA. JSMDF
Kawasaki P-1 MPA. JSMDF

5) ASW Helicopter

A CGI image of two AW159 Wildcat armed to the teeth
A CGI image of two AW159 Wildcat armed to the teeth

The project to equip the RMN with six ASW helicopters was supposed to be funded in RMK10. However it was deferred. Fortunately it has now been revealed that the project had been approved for RMK11.
RSAF Sikorsky S-70B Seahawk helicopter. Note the drum for the dipping sonar
RSAF Sikorsky S-70B Seahawk helicopter. Note the drum for the dipping sonar

Three helicopters are expected to vie for the project, the AgustaWestland AW-159 Wildcat, the Sikorsky S-70 Seahawk and the Airbus Helicopter H225M Cougar.
RMAF Airbus Helicopter H225M Cougar delivering SF soldiers during an exercise on the South China Sea in 2014. Joint Force picture.
RMAF Airbus Helicopter H225M Cougar delivering SF soldiers during an exercise on the South China Sea in 2014. Joint Force picture.

If RMN were to base the helicopters on its three main surface combatants from the LCS, Lekiu, Jebat and the six Kedah class, the Wildcat will probably be chosen. If it was supposed to operate from the LCS only, the Cougar looks a strong bet.

More Deals for Deftech?

Deftech AV6.
Deftech AV6.

Apart from the five items above, industry sources said that there was a strong possibility that Deftech will also be given a contract for the manufacture the MRAP (derived from Thailand’s Chaiseri) and the AV6, most probably to replace the Condors operating in Lebanon by the Malaysian UNIFIL contingent.

Deftech MRAP
Deftech MRAP

Since I have yet to get further confirmation on these items I will just mentioned it in passing here. I will of course chase the leads after Hari Raya.

Malaysian Defence

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About Marhalim Abas 1189 Articles
Shah Alam

82 Comments

  1. Dear Marhalim. An early Selamat Hari Raya Aidil Fitri to u n your family

    Reply
    Thank You, Lee

  2. Let me tell you this, i never like the Deftech MRAP because the behind shape looks to ugly. Beside they have that license from Chaiseri manufacture place. Boring…. but the others i have no critics on that. I hope Malaysian Goverment choose Eurocopter because i like the shape of it… Anyway, Selamat Hari Raya Aidil Fitri Admin!

  3. Well a bit Misleading for 1) and 2) procurement done in RMK10, not need mention in RMK11, is not procurement under rmk11. only item 3/4/5 is potential procurement under rmk11. it sould be report what we procuere under rmk11
    As above report generally disappointed and no vision for malaysia defense. very sad.
    3) for Attack helicopter (AH), if get MD530D and AH6i better dont buy, it just specially ops AH, shot range fire power is low, defense capability also low, well we should see bigger picture get proper AH to boost up PUTD capability, not only on ESSCOM. if budget issue get cheaper one like T129.
    4) on MPA, if select CN235 why not getting better one like C295 MPA with ASW capability, than we no need ASW helicopter. Ocean Master already very old, Thales already got new one, “SEARCHMASTER” aesa radar tech, much power than Ocean Master, too bad it Israel tech inside.
    5) For ASW helicopter, still not clear it work independent or as Gowind LCS station helicopter? if work independent form navy base, better get ASW aircraft. every body know heli is sort range.
    if staion in ship, need to study what ship well be station. it permanently station or rotation? Kedah class using L3 sonar, Gowind class using Thales captas, so ASW heli what system will be carry? so can do integration and link. basically AW159 is carry Thales system, seahawk is carry L3 sonar. other problem is AW159/Seahowk is too small space on board, if fit with ASW terminal and module, the heli is no more space to do transportation and rescue job. still best is get NH90NFH for ASW helicopter, space enough for do ASW system, Thales Flash system easy intregate with Gowind lcs Thales ASW system,and extra space for Search/Rescue mission.

  4. Selamat hari raya marhalim,

    For the light attack heli buy the md helicopter is the cheaper of the two little bird derivatives. A fleet of 24 would get 3 flight of 8 helicopters each. 1 deployed (esscom), 1 training/stanby, 1 rest/maintenance.

    Reply
    Selamat Hari Raya to yourself too. BTW can you resend the articles you send me last time so I can repost them?

  5. Well. I do agree wirh thw procurements. The light scout n attaxk helucopter is all we need bow for ESSCOM. With the laser guided rockets made available n ability to mount the forward firing gatling guns its a potent little heli. Being small its also not easy to hit. Let us use this small heli to develop our tactics n concepts of using attack heli for future proxuremenr of proper attack heli.
    The chaiseri if its armoured for mrap purpose i.e anti mine toi like the other mraps would be great for ESSCOM use for the time being. The 6×6 version of gempita woyld also be a great addition to the 8×8 gempita .
    The mpa we are going to buy is i assume for maritime patrolling n not a multipurpose anti sub n isr equipped plane like the p8 or the jap version of mpa

  6. If we go for Ah6i, then what is the different if we armed those AW139 with rockets pod and gatling guns? If we looking for attack helo better stick to the 6 tigre as per earlier plan. If I\’m not mistaken indonesia buy 8 apachies for about 296.8 mil USD. I guess the figure for 6 tigre must be lower than that. SavvyKL, If I\’m not mistaken LCS has 2 type of sonars 1st is hull mounted type 2nd one is TAS (captas)

    Reply
    Not much difference between an armed A109 and the Little Birds. The Tiger expensive than the Apaches I believe as they are not as many..

  7. The little birds are much smaller n much more agile. In a battle field being small n agile has its advantage. A larger body is easier to hit.

  8. Lee Yoke Meng,
    Little birds is not more agile than larger ship, say a Ranger or Fennec. At full armed its better described as fat slow bird. And as a plastic ship without speed, I and many other pilot prefers to have a little bit more speed and payload to carry a few armor plate.

    SavvyKL,
    ASW chopper has nothing to do with MPA.

    From what I understand the SEARCHMASTER is a Thales group effort. Only the UAV variant involved Elbit.

    Sonar and radar is not as if you put out a T/R and things will just fall into place. Water as a medium itself is a bitch together with living and non living things under the sea. Hull based sonar suffers from noise itself created. And in an operation, for obvious reason, the ship is on the move which makes things harder than it should. Chopper on other hand hovers above the surface, no contact with the water means a lot less self inflict noise. Even it may not be as powerful as ship based sensor, especially the computing power it carries, the picked up signal act as a reference when send back to the mother ship, in some case triples the efficiency of a detection.

  9. H.
    What yiur requirement means is one of those sophisticated attack helos n not one of thos3 pretenders. But malaysua just cant afford it. Too bad. Practicability says either get something or nothing. Take what the country can afford n make the best of it

  10. What about soon to be decommissioned Japanese and US P3 Orion fleet? yeah average life maybe more than 40 years but I believe it is still supported by the manufacturers for another 10-15 years at least due to other countries such as New Zealand still using them pending transition to more modern platform such as P8 or even UAV.

    That being said, same situation with US Navy E2C. These equipment may not be the most advance, but as the US always continuously updating their system so still should be some use. Plus we can buy and upgrade/refurbished them at a reasonable price (so I believe) under FMS or excess defense article.

    This step would provide short to medium term solution for our MPA and even AWAC/ISR requirement, pending our economy to hopefully improve further in the future.

  11. Allrite the “sexy” stuff have been covered.

    Those 2 afloat base destined for ESSZONE, are they flying the White Ensign or Red Ensign?

    Reply
    White Ensign

  12. Heard that the US goverment is giving up to 50 Bell light attack heli

    Reply
    Yes they are letting go of the Kiowas..

  13. To my assumption even if we procure the light scout/attack helo they will not out fit the full armament..just one gun pod…anyway these birds are not going to be in war zone…but merely scouring the coastal areas looking for lanuns in sampans n maybe they will be station on the sea base platform…..my sekupang without any base.

    Reply
    They will have to put gun or rocket pods on both sides to balance the helos. Those carrying Special Forces will not be armed just like US SOCOM Little Birds

  14. To Me,I Better Malaysia To Buy More Su-30MKM And Su-35S Flanker.Malaysia Is Better To Russian Aircraft And Weapons

  15. benarkah LCS Gowind delivery pada 2019?rasa macam lambat je?kalau nak banding dgn PKR SIGMA Indo:first steel cutting January 2014 dan LCS Gowind:first steel cutting December 2014 (beza +- 1 tahun) dan delivery PKR SIGMA adalah pada 2017.Jadi mungkin LCS Gowind akan siap pada 2018.
    p/s:2019 mungkin tarikh paling selamat yang diumum oleh Boustead takut projek delay lagi.

    Reply
    Anda dah beri jawapan kepada soalan anda. Perlu ingat juga ini LCS pertama, banyak benda yang perlu dipelajari …

  16. Despite of its age, P3C is still considered among best MPA around. There are substantial surplus ex-USN & Japanese available.

    Why don’t we consider getting 6 aircraft, 3 based in Labuan & 3 in Kuantan. Furthermore, the Aussie is already operating their P3C from Butterworth AFB. Maybe, we can get them to assist on maintenance.

    Need to do a comprehensive life cost study between new MPA & used P3C before deciding.

  17. Lee Yoke Meng,
    Kiowa is just an uprated 206 aka Ranger and Fennec is nothing but a rugged Civil N, if we get a new one presumbally will be based off the latest NP. Nothing sophisticated here. The little bird of what most of the people here imagine is not the formidable LOH it used to be. The one MD is touting around is just their civil plastic wannabe. The real thing is not any cheaper than AH-6. And the Iraq example someone brought in previously, at 4M a piece is just classic MD overcharging. Which beg the question why not just upgrade to the single Fennec for the same price.

    RedSot,
    If is just one gun then the other side will be a ballast, no biggie.

  18. First to all, Selamat Hari Raya to En. Marhalim and to all muslim brothers and happy holidays to all.

    1. What is littoral warfare? shud we get proper LCS of other type of vessels for this purpose? A frigates size vessel is suites for this role?

    2. Attack helicopter is really necessaries for our needs to counter terrorists? Other option like UAV or light attack helis or aircraft?

    3. Shud we consider C-295 or C-27J aircraft for maritime and transport role?

    4. For shipborne helis, i suggest MR-60F or Wildcat for better logistic support..

    Any comment?

  19. What about light attack planes like the Super Tucano/AT-6B, instead of the light attack helis? These are supposed to be cheaper to operate and superior speed/range/payload. Btw, I think AH-1Z is called Viper, Super Cobra is the previous version. Although surplus/used P-3C is an attractive solution for MPA requirements, need to consider the cost of necessary upgrades/refurbishments, the overall longevity of a platform in its terminal phase of development plus the logistic factor of introducing yet another completely new asset type into MAF…

  20. I personally think little birds are not required. We understand that main AH are quite expensive… so why not in the mean time while waiting for enough $… fully arm the A109s to the teeth.
    Yes i agree we are lacking of AH for quite some time already but keep in mind that our air force is really low on fighter jets + zero AWACS.
    I believe we have a comfortable number of helicopters for the time being… it is just the matter of arming them.
    For long recon flights over ESCOM… i suggest the use of more UAVs…

  21. Ya i think for ESSCOM… more UAVs, better coordination amongst all the units and of crs a few helicopters on standby for quick deployment would be very good.

  22. Ya i think for ESSCOM… more UAVs, better coordination amongst all the units and of crs a few helicopters on standby for quick deployment would be very good.
    Sorry for typos on previous comment. Thanks.

  23. Stanman,First,The Europeon Fighter Aircraft were Very Expencive and Second Western Aircraft May Have A Critical.Why i better perfer Malaysia Buy Russian Weapons.Cause Their Manitainens.So Malaysia better Buy Su-35 And Add More 54 MKM

  24. This is just my observation to run super tacsano or at-6 is no issue but heli can identify n confirm lanun in sampan eith their ability to hover over suspected target select target if the pilot is creative enough………just my sekupang

  25. as per A109 saga, the helo actually never meant for any weapon onboard actually. It main duties is always ferrying top brass. This is Malaysia what can I say.

  26. The light attack k heli is a real force multiplier. Especially in ESSCOM. yes even of we are only fighting terrorist but current terrorist jangan main main. Still remember our second emergency where the terrorist will lie in ambush waiting for our nuri to land n shot them up?. Still remember the nuri down by a missile?. During those days, our nuri needed gunship escort n they converted the allouettes fixed with a side firing cannon for this purpose?. This just illustrates how important a light attack heli is needed

  27. Fadiman76,US And Other Euro Attack Helicopter Were Very,Very Expencive Then Russian Attack Helicopter.I Better Peforme Malaysia Buying Kamov Ka-52 Cause Its Has Ejection Seat and Scout Helicopter.Very Easy.Other Thing That I Will Surpport Malaysia Buy Super Tuneso

  28. LS Mike… Russian aircraft are maintenance hogs. They really are designed for short, brutal lives and engine rebuilds. That does not of course deal with the very basic problem of not having any money coupled with ongoing National Interest in defence spending. Of course there is the little matter of a certain airliner shot down by a Buk.

    Of the many things we could buy from Russia, more Sukhois is not one of them. Those things are very high RM/hour and we need them like we need another Birkin handbag.

    RedSot….how can you tell that the sampan has lanun and not some IC-holding Filipinos? Do they have a little Jolly Roger on the stern? Does the helo come up, hover close and have someone jump into the sea to do VBSS?

    Where are we going to find the money for all this stuff? After all, we are now in a hole thanks to a fund that we have agreed to be responsible for, but have no oversight of. The entirety of the security apparatus is run as a milk cow.

  29. I guess we all have our different views on what’s better for PUTD. However, looking at it from another perspective, would it not be costly & a pain for them to stock on parts, accessories & other affiliated equipments seeing that they are already operating the A109 & Nuri.
    With fund constantly being in short supply and for compatibility sake, would it not be more prudent to get more A109 and “properly” arm them since they are already wired for it .

    Reply
    Yes buying the gun and rocket pods for the A109 would be more prudent..

  30. Whether its our own 109, thw brunei blackhawks or the little birds, at least 8 should be sent to be based in Tawau or Lahad Datu. 2 to stand by for qra tasks n 2 for patrol. The rest can be for training n maintenance. The qra n patrol units must be fully armed with two gatling guns n missiles.

  31. Stanman,Look At US And Other Nation.Looks Like They Were Very Expencive Then Russian Military Hardwere.Kamov Ka-52 Is Very Suteble For Malaysia And Malaysia Need Russian Hardwere

  32. Good question need to be answered…to my understanding there is lots of difference between lanun n pinoy genuine fisherman…these can be done thru profiling..1.do fisherman with fishing net have no fish in its sampan..tell tale sign..2.fisherman dont wonder around the sea aimlessly…3.any approach by authority true fisherman will not figet..jumping into the sea comando style n do ship boarding is old school…now we can use all the optoelectronic eyes attached to the helo…magnification do human profiling…infrared look for hot weapons stached in the sampan…suspicious behaviour means the pilot will have to put bullet in their head…these all depends on the level of experience of human profiling…trafficker will automatically throw all the contraband into sea the minute they see helo flying low towards them…..haha the lanun flag of yesteryears are gone too bad if not it will make our pilot identify them easily….and many many more tell tale sign…..wether u are lanun..trafficker or just a fisherman….

  33. Little wonder why malaysia border is very busy with kidnapping n trafiking not because the boys taking care of the border dont care but its just they are not well trained to profile people in hot zone n furthermore their attitude of tidak apa….that keep welcoming trafickers..smugglers..kidnappers etc..n when they are hit hard by kidnappers welding just parang n sumpit the top pple start blaming other agency etc etcn the story goes on n end up swept under the carpet….of cause my thought got no base to it but its common sense n logic dont you think?

  34. P3C for Malaysia… nah, no doubt they are proven to be reliable but bear in mind they are quite expensive to operate. The reason why they have 4 engines basically is to satisfy the ETOPS requirements and stuff like that.
    I think it is a wise decision to opt for the CN235/295 MPA. Reason will be that RMAF is quite experienced in operating and maintaining these a/c. Moreover crew training can also be done locally… cheaper la.
    Just my opinion. Thx.

  35. Two AFSB Esszone with White Ensign, wow from photos online, these AFSB of Tun-Class (I termed it Tun due to the names) have its name instead of numbers painted at the bow, a practice normally for non-White Ensign.

    Does this mean AFSB will have prefix-KD and put into the TLDM Ship Register? Btw have Bunga Mas-class now have its KD?

  36. What about the surplus US OH 58?

    Reply
    I have not heard of any interest on the Kiowas . Since they are surplus arms it will be up to the US Government to offer them to us.

  37. @ ls mike
    what is all this very suitable for malaysia and malaysia needs it rant? What is your reasoning behind all that?

    @Redsot & stanman
    Regarding the use of attack/observation helicopters in the context of esscom. It is never meant to be operated on its own. The light attack heli is supposed to be operated in conjunction with other assets such as ground radars, patrol ships and boats. Routine missions should include aerial observations and show of presence, shadowing/looking up suspicious boats (that is tracked by radars etc to be off the recommended routes etc), air cover of risky boardings and lastly most important task IMO, intercepting/outflanking identified bandit targets in a chase before they sneak back into Philippines.

    @jsingh744
    What is ETOPS got to do with p3c? Too much mh370 for you eh? ETOPS means extended TWIN engine operations, a distance to the nearest airport over water for airliners with twin engines for emergency landings.

    @tomtom
    When a us military items are declared surplus, a friendly country such as malaysia could request them, either to be bought or given as excess defence articles. You usually don’t wait for us to offer them, but you have to request what you want 1st. It is normal for countries even like UK, Australia, Japan to ask for excess defence articles. Last time we ask for excess defence articles is for kd inderapura and the 2nd lst, which was approved but we didn’t take. In contrast to our neighbours singapore, Thailand and Indonesia, they have requests nearly every year, not just big items but for spare parts too..

  38. @ ls mike
    what is all this Russian stuff very suitable for malaysia and malaysia needs it rant? What is your reasoning behind all that?

    @Redsot & stanman
    Regarding the use of attack/observation helicopters in the context of esscom. It is never meant to be operated on its own. The light attack heli is supposed to be operated in conjunction with other assets such as ground radars, patrol ships and boats. Routine missions should include aerial observations and show of presence, shadowing/looking up suspicious boats (that is tracked by radars etc to be off the recommended routes etc), air cover of risky boardings and lastly most important task IMO, intercepting/outflanking identified bandit targets in a chase before they sneak back into Philippines.

    @jsingh744
    What is ETOPS got to do with p3c? Too much mh370 for you eh? ETOPS means extended TWIN engine operations, a distance to the nearest airport over water for airliners with twin engines for emergency landings.

    @tomtom
    When a us military items are declared surplus, a friendly country such as malaysia could request them, either to be bought or given as excess defence articles. You usually don\’t wait for us to offer them, but you have to request what you want 1st. It is normal for countries even like UK, Australia, Japan to ask for excess defence articles. Last time we ask for excess defence articles is for kd inderapura and the 2nd lst, which was approved but we didn\’t take. In contrast to our neighbours singapore, Thailand and Indonesia, they have requests nearly every year, not just big items but for spare parts too.

  39. “Routine missions should include aerial observations and show of presence, shadowing/looking up suspicious boats (that is tracked by radars etc to be off the recommended routes etc), ” yes agreed but at the end of the day it still needs human evaluation, judgement n profiling,to ensure those sampan is positive lanun..fisherman etc right n the decision to put bullet on their head depends on the crew manning the helo….

  40. Look,How Many Russian Export To All Contry.Russian Is only Way We Need.After We Dump The MRCA.We Better Buy Russian Aircraft

  41. RedSot…. please offer your services to ESSCOM. I am curious how you can tell if there is a rifle or pistol in a foam box let alone determine intention by optoelectronic means. I am even more amused by your notion that the Rules of Engagement allow the use of deadly force on suspicion or non compliance.

    LS Mike…. the affordably priced hardware from Russia was almost all Soviet surplus. Once those stocks dried up, their unit costs ballooned. New build equipment like KA-52s and Mil-29s are cheaper but they simply do not perform anywhere as well and tend to have higher lifetime costs. And now we have to pay cash.

    …… ESSCOM does not need AH. There is no threat that cannot be adequately handled by a door gunner with a MAG58. Everything in Malaysia is distorted by National Interest. A dedicated AH is just a waste of resources for the sort of missions ESSCOM has. It is not like we are going to engage in hot pursuit or conduct operations in the Philippines. Here in Bodekland, we never discuss the problems at hand.

  42. “please offer your services to ESSCOM. I am curious how you can tell if there is a rifle or pistol in a foam box let alone determine intention by optoelectronic means.”……would love to but first n formost the attitude of those guarding the borders must not be “”tidak apa” attitude…ego of aku anak bumiputra must also be kept very low than only u can accept others opinion..learn very fast because orang bumiputra is difficult to take in good advice n learn from others…actually the whole world is but a class room just need to open up ur mind be receptive to ideas from others n u will be better than before….just my sekupang

  43. Out topic…

    wonder RMAF have how many R-77 missile

    Reply
    No idea. Why do you want to know about this?

  44. Redsot…..What are you talking about? It has nothing to do with tidak apa or ego bumi or any of the above. How much experience do you have in VBSS or law enforcement?

    You are espousing skillsets that do not exist even amongst the cream of Mat Salleh LE and military that I have dealt with. There would be no point in VBSS at all if you could just roll up in and give them a good looking over. Why talk to anyone if you can see the glint of evil on their face? How do you interrogate someone from a helicopter?

    The level of ignorance here is epic. You do not even have a perfunctory understanding of the procedures or rules of engagement that are necessary to ensure both effective and safe policing of littoral zones. Please, stop digging the whole you are in. It is just embarrassing to watch.

  45. Yes i understand that even little birds are over the top for missions in ESSCOM. There is nothing an A109 with door guns can’t deal with in ESSCOM (as tasks are more to policing duties, like what HITRON teams of USCG are tasked).

    But for the larger context of developing experience and knowhow of operating attack helicopters, the little birds are a good stepping stone, and operations in ESSCOM area (not just in policing/patrolling duties, but training for scenarios such as what happened in Kg Tanduo or what happened in Mindanao) would help towards that goal.

  46. sambung comment above:

    And frankly IMO getting little birds are more practical than the services previous insistence of half dozen of Eurocopter Tigers…

  47. Stanman,I don’t care We Pay Money But We Have to Maintain These Russian Aircraft And Attack Helicopter.Even Malaysia Are Mostly Like Long Range Air Defences.We Buy More MKMs And Ka-52.

  48. Like i said u can be a long service general…u can recite the ROE..SOP..even in your sleep n u can even use bombastic words for naming technical things thst u may think layman dont understand…like it or not lanun all over knows pretty well the SOP..ROE of what u can n cannot do..n as a lanun they will put these rigid rules to their advantages…that is why i say again no matter who u are throw away your ego aside..read the envirinment u ar in n insallah things will go your way…to catch a thief u have to be a thief not some gung ho law enforcement that u think u know all….my sekupang….oh even know adays lanun are train to hide their face expressions n intentions it needs lots of dispiline n training just to evade rigid minded law enforcement..my sekupang SIR…enjoy scouring ur eez xone with up thight SOP ROE….things change the way lanun works some times better then sof….

  49. I am trying very hard to discern if there is anything behind the jumble of letters lacking grammar, punctuation, case and spelling. If you are unable to express yourself in English, please by all means use Bahasa but respect whichever language you choose to use. Don’t just type your stream of consciousness, it does not benefit the point you are arguing.

    We are a nation of laws, still. The process of securing the maritime borders must necessarily be legally prudent. We cannot behave in an arbitrary manner, even if the persons are not Malaysian.

    I would still encourage you to share your skill in reading intent through passive observation with our security agencies. I can assure you that the relevant people do not have big egos. Their stock in trade is in fact to watch, study and observe. If you can compress that into a short period of remote observation, I think they would be very keen to learn.

  50. Let blogger participate in what ever they feel they wants to air their views…n let the admin do the vaxing wether it is suitable for others to view.like in the earlier comment Please, stop digging the whole you are in. It is just embarrassing to watch.but SIR u are leaving a trail now that the rest of the blogger or even tech savve lanun kniws who u are….my sekupang

  51. Hopefully the programme for MPAs will become reality. However, we should not get carried away with talks of the MPAs having a ASW and ASuW capability. Getting into that game is expensive, not just to buy the ordnance but acquiring and maintaining the needed skillsets.
    The main roles of the MPAs will be surveillance of our territorial waters and EEZ, as well as SAR. Sexy stuff like hunting subs and ships can come later.

    LS Mike,

    Russian aircraft come with penalties. They may be cheap to buy compared to Western types but when it comes to operating costs, they can be more expensive. Stanman has pointed this out and so have I in numerous posts over the years. If you’re wondering why, it’s because stuff like engines, radar, nozzles, landing gear and other critical components have a lower TBO or MBTF – but don’t take my word for it, do your own research. Also, unlike the case when buying Western, one can’t deal direct with Ulan Ude or Irkutsk! One has to deal via Rosoboronexport. Now, before you mention that other countries are still buying Russian; this could be due to politics or simply because they have been operating Russian aircraft for years. If you think about it, there must be a very good reason why the RMAF doesn’t want anymore Russian….

    I know many get a hard on every time “attack helicopters”, “gunships” and ‘firepower” are mentioned but these. are NOT a panacea to the problems we face in ESSCOM and it’s not as if the bandits/ intruders/ kidnappers/pirates are entering our waters in corps or divisional strength. The focus should be on better coordination with the various agencies, a more flexible ROE and acquiring patrol and surveillance assets in sufficient quantities.

  52. LS Mike,
    Much as I do, I have to agree with Azlan here. There are reasons why Smokey Bandits (MiG-29) were meant to retire even though it was continued short lived. I even wanted Hinds for our Army but let’s try and step back into reality. We are currently under equipped (which was obviously what we’re talking here…), under strength and under manned. With the current economy, tight budgets and the government’s political interest, this makes the defense budget had to be given a low priority. The military is trying their best upgrade our forces. Slow modernization is the worst thing but surely, thigs will change in the end.

  53. At the end of the day; defence spending – not just in Malaysia – does not buy votes or ingratiate the politicians with voters. If defence spending bought votes, the government would be doing a better job and the opposition would come up with an alternative defence policy. Until a day actually comes when we are faced with a direct threat that actually threatens our sovereignty or the way we go about our business; defence will not be a priority and emphasis will be in gaining a minimal deterrent capability and procurement will be capability; rather than threat driven.

    At the moment we are neither here nor there and as long as we continue to do too many things under a penny or sen pinching budget and let political and other factors govern what we buy; nothing will change.

  54. Buying Hinds would not have been a disaster if we understood that we would have to operate them using a different philosophy and procedures; i.e. parts would not have lasted as long as Western equivalents, engines would need replacing faster if flown as much as we fly our Nuris and Also, etc. We would also have to accept the fact that the Hind does not have the same level of systems redundancy than Western equivalents, that we would need Western help if we desire a night capability comparable with Western types and that no Russian company would be able to deliver a high fidelity flight simulator if we desired one. For that matter, until today no Russian company manufacturers flight or gunnery simulators comparable in performance to Western equivalents.

    The plus side is that the Hind would require less preventive maintenance, be more rugged (for one it has less electronics) and would be able to operate from “rugged” areas with less ground support. A major disadvantage is that we can’t deal with the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant the way we can with Airbus Helicopters or Agusta Westland.

  55. Whatever the outcome is from the RMK11, we must come to realize Malaysia armed forces can’t afford many of it wants and even needs. With the little that’s allocated to them, let hope MAF will be able to work it personnel and hardware in the most efficient way.
    As for me, I don’t think we need AH for the present non-state threat and even will it be of use in SCS. Armed our existing A109 with not only gun and rockets but with integrable sensors, to maximize on it effectiveness in our armed force support needs. And since we’re stuck with A109, we’ll have to use it to build a better platform for our future procurement.
    ASW helicopter investment will definitely a big deterrent assets to have, for now and more so for the future. As we don’t own a big number of ships to cover the large maritime surface of Malaysia, I would say, the right ASW helicopters will definitely work well as our “big stick” in the eyes of the intend to be intruders.
    Ever since before MH-370 till the recent MT Orkim Harmony, our two and soon to be four Beechcraft MPA are just not enough. I honestly hope that our MPA program will come through as these are a truly multi capable platform that is seriously lacking. As with Azlan, I would agree that the sexy stuff can come later. I believe that, you can’t catch what you can’t see and for now, MPA is definitely a must. I wonder what happen to the Aerostats Surveillance systems that was being consider sometime back?
    At the end of it, the effectiveness of MAF mechanize will highly depend on how their needs are being met by our politician and parties with interest. We’ve seen much blunder resulting from final procurement decision which might not of the best to our defence needs. I do wish, this people will come to their sense and seriously put the nation needs as a priority.

  56. Lets be fair in our comments.
    For the requirements, what we require are as follows
    1. Persistant surveilance. This means radar. We need radars to cover an area from sandakan to tawau. So both land based radar n offshore radars from the two petronas platform n the mobile base based on the misc ship
    2. Surveilance also from blimbs but all said these blimbs may be more effective placed on either of the platforms.
    3. To fight highly mobile raiders we need quick n cheap response. Its means having either mpas that can move fast to find, identify n maybe interdict.the raiders. What planes can do this?. Either mpa or buy cheap super tuc or the at6. But planes suffer in the sense that it cant hover. They must be supported by small helis to interdict n escort these raiders back to port
    4. Good patrolling. It must be done to dominate the sea. These patrols are of two types namely routine n non routines so raiders cant catch the trend5. Good coordination between radars, aircrafts/helis n interception / patrol boats.
    6. Lastly vigilant n pro active ground element that once again patrol on routing n non routine basis catching people unaware.
    Small problem but need big solutions
    not forgetting. Good intelligence n cross border intelligence cooperation is of utmost importance.
    Our ground leaders must be trained to think not like in an ordinary way. They must thing as a raider n put themselves into the shoes of the raiders n ask themselves if he is a raider leader, what would he do. Then we wait for them yo act n hopefully wham we hit them once, twice n three times. Theses raiders will then think twice before they come over
    as for buying the new russian attack copters, its no lo ger cheap to buy n operate. These helis are also highly sophisticated n these new fangled russian equipment does not come cheap. So these new stuffs are not like russian equipment of yore. They are now expensive to but n expensive to operate.but of course compared to western equipment they may still be cheaper but do we need to pay the realatively more expensive equipment but even more expensive to operate or pay more in the putset for more reliable equipment. This question i have to leave to the politicians as i have no answer to them

  57. ”Just buy MKMs and Ka-52.”

    Why? Since we’re now in fantasy land, better for use to buy used Alfas and Backfires.

    Instead of just saying ”buy this” and ”buy that” [which anyone with access to Google can do]; why don’t you back up your statement with something more substantial: tells us in detail why we should buy both and what benefits such a move would provide?

  58. See the pinoy is arming the 109 with gun n rockets but i read previously from other blogger the reason why tudm didnt arm their 109 is because they found out the undercarriage is unable to take the weight so which is which?or is that mean tudm bought the cheap skate 109?

  59. If budget permits and the economy is not as it is now,i would go for more mkm rather than the typhoon, rafale and gripen. Reason being simple economies of scale. Heard rumours of
    Of super expensive running cost plus difficulty dealing with the russian plus the fact the aircraft is not as user friendly in terms of parts and maintenance,but i would rather go with a system that we already have the logistical support/training and developed a doctrone while awaiting for the real 5th gen fighter such as the F35 or the PakFa to come online fully by 2025

  60. For choppers, I agree we shouldn’t be getting more light choppers, we already have A109s in the inventory , ridiculous to buy another platform! Just upgrade all the A109s, and you’ll have your light attack coppers..

    A better buy would be the Turkish A129 attack helicopter, should be cheaper than an Apache or Tiger plus the army are already buying a lot of Turkish equipment (plus from an Islamic country, less people make noise)…..this is far better than any AH-6s or MD530gs…

  61. RedSot,

    ”the reason why tudm didnt arm their 109 is because they found out the undercarriage is unable to take the weight so which is which? or is that mean tudm bought the cheap skate 109?”

    ”Cheap skate”? Before jumping to conclusions, first ask yourself what the A-109 was originally designed for ……..

    The landing gear is prone to damage in the event of a hard landing; whether or not the type is armed. Weight considerations are governed by the strenght of the airframe, its ability to withstand certan stress levels, amount of fuel carried and other factors. The Fennec has skids that can also be damaged in the event of a rough landing anf the Beechraft also has weight issues to the extent that the wing tip tanks have replaced drop tanks and that carrting an extra passenger poses a risk during take off; doesn’t reflect badly on both types.

  62. S. Ahamd – ”For choppers, I agree we shouldn’t be getting more light choppers”

    Why are people so focused on the hardware? Before we get armed helicopters [whether light ones or dedicated armed ones like the Apache] we first must ask what we need the helicopters to do and whether the chosen helicopter will really make a difference in dealing with whatever threats we face. We also must ask whether we have [in adequate numbers] other assets we can use in conjunction with armed helicopters to get the best of the capabilities it offers.

    S. Ahmad – ”Just upgrade all the A109s, and you’ll have your light attack coppers”

    How pray tell do we further ”upgrade” the A-109s? The type is a light helicopter designed originally for civillian use and in line with its class category has weight limitations. It’s like saying lets upgrade the C-130 so it can carry 70 tonne MBTs or upgrade the Av-8 so we can mount a 120mm gun on it.

  63. My no interest in the 11 Fearless class PV ship? It come equip with water jet engine and low draft for litoral operation. It 20 years old and still have another 20 years left. You can replace your jerung class, etc at one go.

    I say tis becuz Phillipines might buy them and it will be big boost for their navy even more if they install anti ship missile on board.

  64. As a civi, i say the fearless would be good for apmm

    Reply
    I have not heard anything about the Fearless class being bought/donated by/to Malaysia either APMM or the RMN. It is fitted with MTU engines so it will likely be accepted if any deal comes together.

  65. You might have approach RSN about it. I dun think they will scrap becuz they are have a lot of life in them. And in term of design, they are quite modern with less crew and more shiptronik and moduler. They are build with anti lanun esp. water jet engine and litoral combat in mine and very suit to Sabah water and island chains.

    So they will go to whoever want buy them. But since relations are good My should get them at bargain.

  66. how about greece p-3 orion ???
    we know they were in bankcruptcy…

    Reply
    Greek is not selling anything AFAIK

  67. @azlan

    Anything can be damaged in a rough landing. The a109 is already designed for weapons fit, as in the picture of the Philippine birds and as fitted tu putd birds at airshows previously. There might be other factors such as maneuverability, hover performance etc but it can always be taken into account when operating the aircraft. If the a109’s are armed then that is one of the possible options and a good one too imo. Getting little birds additional to the a109 would be fine too, as it is probably more focused to the attack mission than the a109, and leaving the a109 free for utility/communication missions.

    As for the beechcraft, what you always mention is a very2 small issue, and easily solved by having the latest upgrades for the b200t airframe. The mtow of the older models can easily be increased with retrofit/modification of later spec engines and aerodynamic enhancements, without major structural strengthening. And these modifications are regularly done to older beechcrafts in the private sector, as it not only increases the motw, but also speed, max ceiling and amazingly lowers the fuel consumption.

  68. ……,

    Yes but due to its design the landing gear of the A-109 is extremely prone to damage, more so than other types. I never implied the A-109 can’t be fitted with weapons and I’m aware that others have done so; like everything else it comes with penalties.

    Talking about the Philippines, I recently landed in Clark and saw something new. Just as one exits the airport’s entrance there (in a fenced off area) 4 Hueys in open storage – they weren’t there before. As you leave the airport, there is a Crusader on display.

    The Beechcraft. We’ve had this discussion before. Regardless of the improvements made to newer models; the fact remains that the type was never originally designed for the task we use it for and on the model we use, not only is space and issue but also power supply and weight. Power supply and weight issues can/has been rectified to an extent but not space. The addition of AMASCOS has also added weight and has affected the type’s endurance.

  69. Marhalim sir.are they gonna start retirering some of the hercules when the 400 become fully operational.considering more than half of the fleet now aproaching 40 years old.

    Reply
    Currently the Hercules are expected to be in service until 2030 and probably beyond that

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