The Colt M4…

PETALING JAYA: Since I have said a lot of about the M4 Carbine lets enjoy the story below….

KUALA LUMPUR: The Defence Ministry has sealed a RM700 million deal with the United States to purchase 130,000 new weapons for the armed forces and police.

Defence Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the government had in 2006 approved the 5.56mm Colt M4 carbine, which can accommodate the M203 grenade launcher, to replace the Austrian-made Steyr AUG assault rifle.

SME Ordnance Sdn Bhd (SMEO), which began local production of the Steyr in 1991, had on Nov 19, 2007 undertaken the deal with American firm Colt Defence LLC to initially acquire 14,000 carbines, which were all delivered by June 2008.

The company followed it up with a second contract with the same firm on Feb 17 this year for the supply of 116,000 carbines over a seven-year period.

“Through the deal, SMEO is set to obtain the licensing rights to manufacture additional Colt carbines locally, through a technology transfer programme once the US government gives its approval,” said Zahid.

He added that Malaysia would also be given the rights to market the locally produced carbines to Thailand, Brunei, the Phlippines, Indonesia and other countries using them.

“This will enable SMEO to become a centre of excellence for the manufacture of small-bore firearms in Asia,” he said after chairing a Malaysia Industry Council for Defence, Enforcement and Security (MIDES) at the Royale Chulan Hotel, here yesterday.

The MIDES meeting is held regularly towards the establishment of the high-tech Malaysia Defence and Security Technology Park in Sungkai, Perak later this year.

The park will be a one-stop centre aimed at spurring the local defence industry via counter-trade, offsets, transfer of technology, counter-purchase and work packages through partnerships with foreign entities.

Investors from South Korea, Japan, Europe and the Americas have committed an initial US$1 billion (RM3 billion) and pledged an additional US$5 billion for the park.

On another note, Zahid said MIDES had agreed to streamline the purchase and manufacture of defence equipment, including firearms and apparel, for local enforcement agencies to optimise resources for their maintenance.

“Just like the car industry, local manufacturers do not compete over the same product but diversify into different capacities of vehicles.”

Read more: RM700m deal for new firearms http://www.nst.com.my/nst/articles/2nch/Article/#ixzz1HyeO0mF8

-Malaysian Defence

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About Marhalim Abas 1179 Articles
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51 Comments

  1. I wonder,Indonesian & Singaporean have had their own design of rifle.Why we still need to rely on some western design of assault rifle,when our Malaysian company have their design such as the berapi.Can’t we more self-dependence.Even in small arms production we still depending on foreign.

  2. The news doesn’t state anything about M4 riffle attachments. Is the deal is just on the production of the bare files only or complete with attachments such as sights, laser designators, M203 grenade launcher etc? For a RM700mil deal they better be included!

    Reply
    Its bare with detachable handles …

  3. That works out to RM6,034 per rifle and I thought we could save a little by having the production here in Malaysia.

    MOD should at least equip 10th PARA with additional gadgets since 10th PARA would be the first to be deployed in any conflicts.

    Reply
    Based on the story most of the rifles will be manufactured in the US.

    Yes some units including the 10th Para are equipped with additional gadgets but its not general issue…

  4. Syaz, I’ll give you the address of Berapi and a contact number. Ask them if their firearms, which were designed by Russians, Bulgarians, etc, not Malaysians, have been trialled and if they are ready to enter production.

    Hazwan, a Trijicon or an EoTech scope will set you back USD500-600 minimum. Multiply that by 130,000 and then add the cost for the laser pointers, lights, fore-grips, etc. There is no money and no political will. But our bungling defence Minister wants us to believe that the M-4, without it’s nicey bitsy attachments, is much more efficient tool at killing people than the Steyr.

    Reply
    It will have the Hak Kerajaan Malaysia logo on it as the guns are purchased on a commercial basis. The US made laser designators with the invisible beams I believe are off-limits apart to selectable Allies only.

  5. I reckon we are better off with Steyrs. We could have use that money for something else such as body armor(made in Malaysia) or personal radios or even a damn SPH regiment or even an MBRL regiment. Maybe not Caesar or ASTROSS II, but K9, G6, Nora B52 and even Grads is so cheap these days. There 1st Division and 2nd Division are in need of howitzers anyway..

    I hope this is not just a diplomatic maneuver to please the Americans(remember the Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates visit to Putrajaya?) since it doesn’t seem we will be buying the Super Hornets any time soon.

  6. It is. The Steyr AUG buatan Malaysia cannot hold zero. There is a reason for it….money.
    Berapi….LOL.

  7. Marhalim, it will have the TD logo – kris and parang. It’s on everything – boots, RPG’s, small arms, the NTW 20mm rifle, even the Jernas and G-5!

  8. I have no idea what the logic was behind Berapi. One of the persons involved is the former CO of MALBATT in Cambodia and the former CO of the 4th Mechanised Brigade when it was first formed, an honorable, and old school gentleman, unlike many others who get involved in the local defence scene. I’m seeing him next week and will find out more about Berapi.

    Reply
    I believe the blogger Mind No Evil is one those involved the Berapi project.

  9. Bare rifle without any accessories at RM5,385 or less than USD2k. kalau campur all accessories mau jadi double of that kot. will wait and see how this will turn out but as previous experience could be an indicator, another nightmare could be in the making

    Reply
    Not if they continue letting Colt manufacture them in the US…

  10. That guy is talking like SMEO is the crown jewel of malaysian defence industry…

    Reply
    Actually it is. If its up for sale, the queue line will stretch from Batu Arang to Batu Caves.
    With an order book worth billions and no capital expenditure (even if they have to do it the Government will pay for it) its a pretty gold mine.
    Heck I will buy it tomorrow if I got the money, not for the profits but for the chance to shoot ARs, machine guns and AT weapons all year around…

  11. The M4 is only good during peacetime. When in battle it jams a lot thanks to it’s gas-tube design with the hot gas acting directly on the piston. It’s not about the quality – IT’S A DESIGN PROBLEM.

    Even the US wants the HK416 and SCAR to replace the M4. But I guess this continues our reputation for buying stuff no one else wants.

    Reply
    Contrary to popular opinion (including mine) only the AK series, made in Russia, can survive any condition and still come out shooting

  12. I agree that the HK 416 is a better option. As it is the Steyr has the 1.5 times magnification scope for the mat sabuns to aim with and these scopes are very clear. Compared to the regional armies, the Singaporean armies uses such optical scopes to improve the aim of their national servicemen. The M4-bare essentials would be using the famour iron sights only and it takes technique to aim and shoot. If the government really wants our boys who is actually doing the work in the field and whom would be selling their lives,to have the very best, then they should consider weapons like the HK which is tested to be better and also consider alternatives like the superb Sig Saur rifles.They are expensive but then reliable, well constructed, accurate and tough.
    The Russian AK series are tough but not accurate. they are cheap too. in fact our navy PASKAL uses their sub machine gun as all other subs rust rather quickly as compared to the Russian guns.
    There is no need to equip the M4 with all the high high tech laser aimpits etc etc.Just a good optical sight will be good enough.

  13. Yes no rifle is truly reliable. But the problem with the M4 is that unlike the M16 the shorter barrle of the M4 means more of the hot gas hits the firing piston and hits it earlier during the firing cycle.

  14. im in favour of the M4 actually,sbb it is easy to use,field strip n assemble takes within 1 minit lah.actually stoppages n jam occur bila rifle tak bersihkan betul betul,and most mat rambo instead of aim at the enemy and shoot,dia orang put to full auto n empty the magazine,takut mati lah kata kan lol.
    a good soldier always knows his immediate action drill if so happen the rifle jam or stops,this can be done within few second,n this ensures his body is not full of holes while meddling with stoppages.aii yo in a fire fight when stoppages occur,our buddy will cover our back lah until our rifle is in action again,n we dont fight like rambo like most of us think.furthermore fire fight dont last for 24 hrs continuosly,its either we retreat or call for fire support or the enemy retreat
    .lagi satu klu the fire fight say last for 24hrs what are we going to shoot the enemy with sbb max kita cuma bawa x6 full load magazine with us je n unless intel inform us kita will be facing with strong opposition dah tentu ada fire support direct or indirect fire.so jamming n stoppages is just a fix of the mind lah

    Reply

  15. sambung cerita lagi lah,apart from it being use bare w/o optic assistance,to shoot n hit a target u need correct technique taught during ur basic military training,n to get a hit at a 400m range needs practice n proper technique,believe me lah even if ur rifle is equip with the best optic money can buy but with wrong technique n handling an elephant in front of u also u will miss lol.jadi it is not about the M4 but the pple behind the rifle…

  16. PASKAL used their AK-101’s mainly for OPFOR/cross training. A common complain heard about the AK-101 is the iron sights. PASKAL also received some Russian underwater dart guns in the 90’s, not sure if they still have them.

    Marhalim, yes he’s the owner of the blog you mentioned.

  17. Since Merdeka we have gone from the N0.5 SMLE to the Jungle Carbine to the SLR to the HK33 to the M-16A1 to the Steyr AUG and now the M-4 [in between we also had small batches of M1’s [1960’s] and AR-70’s [1970’s].

    In 10 years we’ll probably make another change.

    Reply
    Yes probably by that time there will be a direct energy weapon on the market….

  18. Interestingly.I was watching channel 555 few nights ago and this episode of shootout saw a firefight that occurs in Afghanistan. The whole patrols rifles were jamed and became inoperable inspite of all the Imeediate action drills that were taught and they were using M4 lah what else.Of the Patrol only two rifles remain firing and having two badly wounded men to take care of.Even the platoon sergeant-the IC of the patrol was wounded and is the Taliban afraid of grenade launcehrs and its grenades? No.They used RPG’s as an answer and they have a GIMPY.Only the timely throw of several hand grenades which did kill some Taliban and the earlier radio call-just one call before the radio was KO’ed by bullets. So the moral of the story is that these rifles-the M4 lah are not up to mark when they are needed most.And anything can happen to even the most sophisticatedly supplied soldiers.
    In such a situation I would wish not to be holding an M4 but a SIG rifle i nstead.Even a HK 74 would be better as I can still shoot back.Kena or not different story.Aas long as I can reply the fire, I can also keep their heads down. In this respect our SLR was the best.Seldom have issues, can stand dirt, accurate and powerful but damn heavy lah and the gas plug is a bithc to clean.Another point is that the SLR has an adjustable gas plug where the vent hole size can be adjusted to take into consideration of fouling. The HK 33 is also a dirty gun to clean as the gas does escape from the combustion chamber and the whole piece of cleaning cloth can become black with the gas.

    Reply
    Yes there have been cases of M4/M16 not working in Iraq and Afghanistan but not too much for them to call for the immediate replacement of the ARs.

  19. i was kinda hoping for light sabre….for the ammo expert out there, would a 5.56mm be a better stoppage round compared to 7.62mm? i.e M16 vs AK47 on stopping power only

    Reply
    I am no expert but it will be the AK round as it is a 30 calibre bullet compared to the 22 calibre bullet of the M4. But shot placement remained the top equaliser….

  20. With all these reports about M4 stoppages during intense battle going around, didn’t the MOD guy do some checking? I’m very sure the M4 were subjected to harsh testing in various conditions. I don’t know on what criteria the M4 were selected knowing the fact that HK416 fared better in tests and it is my favourite weapon of choice conducted. Perhaps the brass are leaning closer to Uncle Sam and if they are really concern about our soldiers, please prop up their basic needs also.

    Reply
    Uncle Sam did not treat the reported incidents as serious enough to replace the M4 outright although they are now actively looking for a better solution recently as I had mentioned in another post.
    The 416 is also not a perfect solution to the M4.

  21. My opinion is the top brass is correct,by purchasing n licensing produce the M4 lah.firstly just learn from singapore,they licence produce the AR15/M16 was because its easy to manufacture,all they needed is a lathe machine n cnc machine.no complicated machinery like stamping macnine etc,if u observe closely M16 rifle is basically alloy block that is shaped by those machine.and to produce an SLR is much more complicated than M16.so maybe this is why Malaysia wants to copy cat the success story of singapore from licensing produce to self-make product.but be hold my northen frens,singapore dont just built their own rifle,but of cause with assistance from her close ally,And further more M16 were made famous by malaysian PPH during the insuerency and none of them complain about stopages in the tropical climate….

    Reply
    Singapore was also not allowed to export the M16s they made…We on the other hand got the license to sell the Steyr we built to anyone (the ones allowed by the UN of course) but no one wanted to buy them…

  22. Kamal,

    ”The M-16 combined the weight and handiness of the M-1/M-2 carbine and greater firepower using the 5.56 x 45mm round, which is far more powerful than the .30-inch carbine round, giving a better chance of incapacitation but the light round was easily deflected by foliage when compared to the full power 7.62 x 51mm round used on the standard L1A1 self-loading rifle (SLR). This could penetrate a 20cm tree and hit the target behind it. Currently, the M16A2 rifle and M4 carbine, both in 5.56mm NATO (5.56 x 45mm), are the standard assault rifles in the US Military, generally the M-4 is the standard issue weapon in the Special Forces and the M16 in infantry and other units. This means that the infantry soldier has a greater chance in hitting a fleeting target in the jungle and in urban conflict compared to larger rifles in 7.62mm NATO (7.62 x 51mm). What has been lost is the power to penetrate through material such as foliage, and harder material like rock, brick and trees, especially as there is no longer a section 7.62mm machine gun. The following will stop a 5.56mm round fired at less than 50 metres: One thickness of well-packed sandbags; a five centimetre concrete wall (non-reinforced); a 55-gallon drum filled with water or sand, a small ammunition box filled with sand; a cinder block filled with sand (block will probably shatter); a plate glass windowpane at a 45-degree angle (glass fragments may be thrown behind the glass), a brick veneer or a car body (5.56-mm rounds penetrate but may not always exit).” [Martin Andrew]

    I would also like to add that the M-16A1 and M-4 is much more accurate than the AK-47 due to much better iron sights.

  23. Marhalim, According to Gun Zone in 1974, Singapore sold 10,000 M-16A1’s to the Philippines without the approval of Uncle Sam. A number of ex-SAF M-16A1’s have also ended up in Burma. A handful of countries did express a keen interest in SME’s Steyr’s but we didn’t conclude these deals due to the ‘unhappiness ‘ it would have caused Uncle Sam. And then there was the attempt which you made known, to sell surplus Steyrs to Burundi.

    Reply
    Dont you think thats the reason Uncle Sam refused to buy the Ultimax? To be an arms exporter one need to have a thick hide otherwise why bother at all. Sheesh you cannot equate an attempt to subvert a UN arms embargo as export, Lan!

  24. Marhalim, According to Gun Zone in 1974, Singapore sold 10,000 M-16A1\’s to the Philippines without the approval of Uncle Sam. A number of ex-SAF M-16A1’s have also ended up in Burma. A handful of countries did express a keen interest in SME’s Seyr’s but we didn’t conclude these deals due to the ‘unhappiness’ it would hsve caused Uncle Sam. Why the wanted the Steyr’s as they were alrady Ak-47 users is beyond me. And then there was the attempt ,which you made known, to sell surplus Steyrs to Burundi.

    Reply
    Ever wonder the reason Singapore failed to sell anything to Uncle Sam? To be in the arns business one to be thick skin otherwise why bother.
    You cannot say the aborted deal as export, Lan..

  25. The SMEO should be held accountable for its failure to optmize the Steyr technology which the Malaysian Government bought from Steyr Austria by the hundred millions RM sometime ago.SMEO had the Technical Data Package, TDP ( detailed engineering designs of each component of the Steyr rifle) to enable them to be self-sufficient in the local production of the Steyr rifle.That was the vision of the Government when it spent money on the Steyr technology, to make SMEO the centre of excellence for the manufacture of Steyr rifle. Now the Minister of Defence says SMEO will be the centre of excellence for the Colt M4. Keep changing directions for what? If SMEO had failed with the Steyr local manufacture, what make you think it will do better with the M4 local manufacture? Another example of the short-sightedness of policy makers not being able to identify the real problem resulting in the hundred of millions RM going down the drain.

  26. Wonder what happened to the few hundred AR-70’s we bought and the larger amounts of HK-33’s, about 50,000, of which 200 were given to East Timor in 2004. I suspect we gave East Timor the HK-33’s as an inducement to buy the Handalan lorry which was trialed there – some of the rebels that tried to assassinate the President were armed with our HK’s.
    If I’m not mistaken, the SLR’s were either sold or given free to PNG in the 80’s.

    Reply
    No idea where they are most probably at Batu Kantomen off Jalan Ipoh. The Hks and Handalan (eight if I am not mistaken) were given as gifts to Timur Leste for its independence. Yes we hoped that they would buy more Handalan but no luck so far.

  27. There has been a lot of talk here about buying surplus gear. The British army has retired it’s Stormers fitted with Starstreak and ADAD. Some of these Stormers, with Starstreak launchers, are being sold to the public for 5,000 pounds! This would have been ideal for us as we already operate the Stormer, we are looking for a Starburst replacement and GAPU does not have a passive alerting device like ADAD.

  28. Azlan,

    GAPU does not need a short-range passive alerting device like ADAD.It already has the VERA-E which can detect targets at great distance.

    The Stormers with Starstreak launchers may look cheap but without missiles.Anyway it is not a good candidate since Starstreak is only a VSHORAD.With new emerging threats these days GAPU should be looking at new air defence systems with a range of at least 40 km beyond.

    Reply
    I believe Azlan is saying that the ADAD is for TD mobile formations especially the Scorpion and Stormers squadrons. I am not sure the Vera E was designed to protect mobile formations. I believe you forgot that the RMAF has been given the role for MR SAM.

  29. Marhalim,

    If we have to fight a war, I believe our theater of operation will be within our Malaysian territories having limited frontage.This means the VERA-E can provide cover to all mobile operations within such theater of operations.Information obtained could be shared simultaneously by mobile and static forces.

    The VSHORAD concept in my opinion can no longer be practiced in the Malaysian theater of operations.Survivability in the battlefield demands the Army having the capability to engage hostile jet fighters which could launch standoff weapons at 40-60 km away from the target.These fighter jets are also equipped with day and night surveillance and targeting pods which could detect ground movement at some distance away.Only medium-range air defence capability by GAPU can protect the Army from such threats.The Air Force is not responsible to protect Army units in the theater of operations from air attacks, it is GAPU’s primary task.

    Reply
    You are right in a sense, if we are fighting a highly advanced air power but for local brush wars VHSHORADS and optically aimed machineguns and even 40mm Bofors, the latest version of course, are good enough. Not perfect but good enough, with our fund limitations.
    It will be wonderful if we can afford battalions of ABM-capable SAMs such as the Patriots, Asters and sea-and land based SM2 and SM3s but lets face facts, we cant afford them. We probably cant even afford the shorter range Aster 15s and NASAMs, to be bought in large numbers, which will make the difference, two or three battalions cant cut it.

    Yes, the Russian century series SAMs are more affordable, but its huge change of in terms of infrastructure and support

  30. sorry loreng i am not a military expert nor i am in military. This is just an opinion from public guy.

    I agree that GAPU would need a medium range SAM to expand its air umbrella coverage but i believe also Vshorad does play an important role as a goalkeeper, defender of last resort. I mean this is still even practice by our southern neighbour. The have the 20km hawk, the 10-15 km SYDER and below 6km Manpads. Anything above 20km to 70km seems to be covered by the air force using Derby/Amraam combo.(per Sipri and wikipedia, C5 version only have 65km range while derby max 50km)

    My limited knowledge seems to point out only the navy has an AAM system that is more than 20km ie the Aspide (some say only up to 15km), while GAPU max 8km with the Jernas.

    As funds are scarce and seems to be used for other spending needs, i believe we can at this point in time only maximise whatever resources we have. Thus we have to make full use of our limited resources airforce to protect our airspace from medium rage i.e above 20 km.The SU radar range can go up to 130km for aerial target, Hornet around 80-100, while hawk200 and Mig between 60 to 80km. while our medium rage aam the longest range i believe will be the AA10 version either radar or infra red( 80 to 130km under optimal circumstances), AA12 around 70-100km depending on version we received. Sparrow around 70km also with the C5.

    I dont know for sure but some assumptions that the MIG and the SU can be link up under a datalink TIDS system so the short legged radar of the MIG could use data from the SU to fully optimise the range of the AA10 and AA12.

    Reply
    There have been claims that the Flanker can be used as a mini-AWACs and with datalink it can also be used to cue other weapon systems. In theory and in peace time this could be feasible but in a shooting war, no Sukhoi driver will stay in a race track pattern for hours on end to provide such service for others as with the refueling role. If we have 100 Flankers, yes maybe we can spare a dozen or so, for mini-AWACs or buddy refuelling role, but with 18 its a folly to think such terms in a shooting war.

  31. Somebody should start taking bets on 2 things, 1) that SMEO will pull another steyr on us, and also 2) drb av8 will also be steyred…

    p/s we should make the word steyr a verb rather than a noun hehe

  32. Marhalim and Kamal,

    We have the money to put in a place a comprehensive Ground-to-Air Defence system if only our political and military leaders are really serious about doing the right thing for the country’s defence.For example, with only 25-30% of the 8×8 AFV Budget allocated to Deftech, we could put in place a formidable Ground-to-Air defence system. No doubt about it.

    Reply
    Yes…

  33. loreng,

    VERA-E is a passive detection device, a land based ESM if you will, that detects aircraft by the datalinks, TACAN, etc. ADAD as Marhalim mentioned is used in the field at a much lower leval to alert MANPAD operators on incoming aircraft using IR detection. There are 3 regiments in GAPU armed with MANPADS and only 4 alerting radars – 2 Giraffe’s and 2 TRS-3Ds, not enought to go around. VERA-E is not intended to provide alerting for units in the field but to contribute to the larger air picture.

    I believe there is still a great need for MANDADS to be operated by units in the field to provide some protection against air threats
    – fighter, helicopters, UAV’s – up to 10,000 feet. Any medium range missiles we buy will be deployed to protect installations and large units and will be bought in very small numbers. At battalion level, or lower, there is no substitute for MANPADs. Also, jets and helicopters performing CAS and interdiction, using stuff like JDAM, Maverick, Hellfire and even Paveway, will not always be launching weapons from 50 klicks away, and will be well within range to be engaged by MANPADS.

  34. Our problem is we swallow 100% the fighting doctrine of the West.The clever and smart Alex like the Israelis and the Hezbollah learn their techniques and adapt them to their own conditions and circumstances.They study the terrain, analyze the threat, develop strategies and tactics, procure the required weapons systems and train their troops accordingly.The Japanese did that too when they invaded British Malaya.

    Military planners should be concerned with the larger picture of the threat of air power.We have seen how it crippled the military power of states, for that matter national power in the absence of a comprehensive Ground-to-Air Defence System.We are seeing now other lesser urgent projects like the LCS, 8×8 and MRCA taking precedence over the requirement of comprehensive Ground-to-Air Defence System.Believe you me we will be punished for this neglect should we be dragged into a military conflict in the future.

  35. loreng, according to your school of thought, which should be bought first – a comprehensive Ground-to-Air Defence System which will cost an arm and leg and has no peacetime utility or a fleet of UAV’s which has a peacetime utility, as we urgently need to improve what cabilities we have in keep track of our
    sea-lanes and borders? Should we plan on meeting our current perational requirements or invest the scarce funds on something we might or might not need in the future?

  36. Azlan,

    It is not a question of “to invest scarce reources on something we might or might not need in the future.” The government must invest in whatever that is required for deterrence purposes.We bought all those expensive stuff not to go war! It is to create deterrence.That is the role of the military nowadays, to deter others attacking us because we have stuffs which we could use to hurt them.But sad to say, we do not have the right stuffs right now! Definitely a comprehensive GBAD is a must if we want to deter all those jet fighters a free hand in our national airspace.By the way it won’t cost the arm and leg,with only 25-30% of the 8×8 budget one could go a long way in raising a respectable GBAD system.Trust me.

    Reply
    While I agree that we need a comprehensive GBAD system I believe you are too optimistic over the cost. Systems like the Aster 30 and Patriots Pac-3 ( at least four batallions, four batteries each, two in Peninsula, one each in Sabah and Sarawak) will cost about the same for the AV8 project. Yes, the Russian double nought SAMs are cheaper but then since the air force seemed to be allergic to anything Russian, its definitely a no go. Another reason is of course is compatibility with other systems which the GBAD is a just a component of a more larger package.
    Since most of our territory is mainly water, we need at the minimum four destroyers armed with Aster 30 or SM-2/3 which will set us back another RM6 billion. Apart from this we also need at least 60 interceptors or MRCA and a host of MR-SaMs and optically or radar guided missiles and guns. Don’t forget the force multi-pliers such as tankers and other stuff.
    All of this must be linked together to an advanced C4 hq (fed by ground/sea/air/ space radars and sensors) so in peacetime we don’t shoot any stray jet-liners and in a crisis, we will be able to kill anyone who dare to enter our airspace.
    In a sense it will be like NORAD. An investment in the region of RM100 billion easily.
    Some will say its an over-kill, when there is no clear and present danger

  37. I beg to differ with you on the cost of comprehensive GBAD. It is not just the missile and firing system, it has to be complement with secure data link either fibre optic/satelite link or secure radio link. One reason why Iraq GBAD not so effective in GW1 is due to the allied manage to jammed up the data link from the radar to the firing system and vice versa.

    Myanmar did a comprehensive GBAD with the help of russia and china which also include secure datalinkage.

    If we just talk about firing system, then there is the three layer that would need to be covered. Long range there will be the Patriot and the russian s300/400, though i really doubt we can afford the patriot even if US want to sell to us. The S300 latest version still not cheap either, around USd150-200 mill per complete system. To be comprehensive, we need at least 4 to cover peninsular and Sabah&sarawak. Lets not mentioned the medim range and the E-shorad.

  38. Silly to invest cash on medium range missiles when do don’t have cash to invest in UAV’s to protect our borders and vital sea-lanes against current threats that we face. We are not currently faced with marauding foreign jets in our air-space …. Like I said previously, we are faced with peacetime challenges we can’t even effectively deal with so why bother at the moment to buy medium range SAM’s. And which should come first, additional radars to cover what gaps we have or SAM’S??

    loreng, 25-30% of the AV8 cost and we can have a ‘respectable’ GBAD?? What figures are you basing your statement on and just how many batteries can we afford? And it’s not just a question of buying ASTER or VL MICA, we also have to integrate it with our current network.

  39. Marhalim and Azlan,

    Of course we will not be able to build a comprehensive GBAD overnight.It has to be done in stages.To start with,if we have an allocation of RM2.5 billion (30% of 8×8/LCS budget) we could put in place 2x battery of long-range SAM and 3x battery medium-range SAM to be used as deterrence with other existing assets.We could tidy-up the GBAD system with subsequent allocations.What is really urgent now is for Malaysia to have a credible GBAD capability because our country is key player in this region!

  40. most of current comments highlight around GBAD system.i find some interesting fact about cost air defence system.
    1 Taiwan ordered 4 Patriot-3 SAM system in 2009 with $1.1 b deal (incl $134 m for spares; part of $3.2 b deal); delivery by 2012.
    2 China ordered 8 S-300PMU-2/SA-20B SAM system in 2004 and delivered in 2007-2008 with $980 m deal.
    3 Malaysia ordered 3 Jernas SAM system in 2002 and delivered in 2005-2007 with $400 m deal (offsets incl production of components in Malaysia).
    4 Iran ordered 29 Tor-M1/SA-15 Mobile SAM system in 2005 and delivered in 2006-2007 with $700m deal (part of $1 b deal); incl for protection of Iranian nuclear plant.
    5 Syria ordered 36 Pantsyr-S1 Mobile AD system in 2006 and delivered in 2008-2010 (Part of $400-730 m deal; no. could be up to 50)

    *just for info

  41. I am curious about this integration deal. Is it that hard? I am thinking that any sort of data from radar etc can be standardized a la NEMA2000 for other components of the defence system to understand each other. Any links for further study

  42. Loreng, almost all the countries in the region are key players and have important roles to play. Yes we need a more effective and networked GBAD but we also need many, many other things!!
    IMO we should spend what limited cash we have on stuff that is presently needed to cope with current security threats and challenges…….

  43. The Jernas order comprised 9 launchers, 3 Blindfire trackers and 3 Dagger radars. As part of the off-set deal BAE Systems built the joint service EW school.

    Reply
    And so much problems to maintain them…..

  44. Which remains to be seen if similar problems were to happen if we bought VL MICA or ASTER for GAPU. And how much of these problems with Jernas were due to our high humidity or other reasons, is something I’m curious about.

    Reply
    Its mostly because we as usual failed to appreciate how much money is needed to maintain these stuff and the lack of technical expertise even for basic repairs.

  45. Why cant we use the AK. Proven, reliable and cheap, slightly overweight, thats all. half colt and half AK…saves lots of money. just a suggestion.

  46. Listen guys. If there were gonna be war, we don’t need all those air defence equipment. It’s a short-lived war machines buddy!!. This is South East Asia.Government initiative of putting up PLKN is the first step. Next step is to learn jungle warfare. Vietnamese beat the hell of the Americans in 1975. We are not going for conventional warfare which we will lose in a week. Who dares to have another jungle warfare? Rational????

    Reply
    Our enemies will not fight fair. They wont go for jungle warfare. They will follow your advice and go for conventional war. PLKN is a waste of money.

  47. joe,its because malaysia army dah fall in love with the black rifle lah.easy to use,light weight,assemble n stripe pon senang.less component unlike the AK. if u have the chance field strip AK n M16 then u know the difference.

    Reply
    Its not the Army but the powers that be….

  48. joe if im ur state enemy for example,i need not set my foot on ur soil,we use air-power with precision missile,saturate n immobilised ur war assets n wait till u put up white flag..PLKN actually is not a waste of time it is to teach all races to understand one another because the govmen realised malaysian lives in kampong n prefer to live only with their kaum puak,tak mix arround dengan kaum lain,ini will easily stir racial disharmony easily

  49. ini laman tak banyak org komen…bgus sikit,listen lah pple to know ur enemy well is to mingle with them,so u know their way of thinking,planning,feeling something like that susah nak explain.tu sbb malaysian easily being counter every time n at every corner by its southern fren,cos they know very well your thoughts,like n dislike,sentiments,where else u my northern pple tak nak pelajari cara pemikiran mereka,cos u thought u dah kenal mereka very very well…pls dont thought but think.

  50. and im not surprise klu my northern fren termakan pujuk rayu southern fren n sangup jual stratigik assets mcm telekomunication,transportation,part of johor maybe and im not surprise even putrajaya one day….

  51. with the experience of manufacturing both steyr’s and m4’s. maybe in 10 years time we could see SMEO’s proposing a hybrid of those 2 rifles.

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