MAF RMK10 Wish List

KUALA LUMPUR: KUALA LUMPUR: As mentioned previously listed below are the Malaysian Armed Forces Tenth Malaysian Plan wish-list. The list was the procurement plans mentioned by the PAT for the Armed Forces Day interview in September.

Since I was not asked to prepare the questions (last minute rush, as usual) and the fact that I was not able to be at Mindef for the formal interview, I had agreed to embargo the list below for my colleagues who went for it. Obviously, a lot of things were missed in the interview, I had not other choice but to run the wish list below.

I do not claimed that the wish list below are the complete list submitted by MAF to the ministry. As usual the PAT only answered the questions that was forwarded to him in advance. So if you missed a question, the good general wont offer any clue. And by tradition no numbers or type were revealed. By the same time next year I am hoping I will be able to ask more questions and hopefully get more answers.

RMAF
1) AEW (the PAT confirmed the Government had agreed to purchase AEW asset in 2008 but it was deferred due to the economic crisis. Malaysian Defence had reported that the Govt had in principle agreed to purchase the Saab AEW system but without the involvement of Embraer.
2) Nuri Replacement Programme. The Cougar remained a very serious contender and Eurocopter Malaysia is working hard to get the deal signed. Will it be signed during LIMA? At the moment, I am still saying no.
3) MPAs.

The PAT also said RMAF was still studying the further MRCA requirements so its apparent no PLANNED procurement is expected within the next three years. It does not necessarily mean that we wont buy them if the politicians suddenly decide we need to beef up the lone Sukhoi squadron!

Army
1) 8X8 APC replacement. They wont replace the Sibmas and Condor on one to one basis. Don’t how many at this point in time. So the mechanised regiments will have to make do with KIFV and Adnans. The APC replacement programme was supposed to come in the Ninth Malaysian Plan but got the chop due to you know what. The general did say that the wheeled APC programme was meant for international peace keeping missions and MRAPs was not in their planning.

2) A regiment of Self-Propelled Howitzers. No firm candidate yet, but the Caesar remained the most probable. It will be attached to a mechanised regiment so the numbers could be 12 + 12.

3) Man-portable AT and AD missiles. The AT system was tendered last year and it was rumoured that the Javelin had been selected with some 20 launcher and up to 200 missiles to be purchased. Nothing about training missiles though. No candidates for the AD missiles have been confirmed.

RMN

There was nothing about the MPSS. It was not asked I believed but I guess with the Inderapura fire, the MPSS is back on the table. In 2007 at LIMA, Najib said the MPSS project had been given the green light but since then matter had gone quiet. At that point, the Dokdo was the shoe-in candidate with the Mistral coming a close second.

1) Lekiu Batch 2. Yup its still there but I am not sure it will be finalised due to the price quoted by BAE Systems (RM3 billion per ship for local ,manufacture, half the price if built in the UK)

2) NGPV batch 2

3) Hydrographic ships. We need these ships to map our seas. The three items above were holdovers from RMK9. as of number 5, 7 and 8.

4) Littoral Combatant Ship. Indeed the PAT had not used the exact term used by the Americans (Littoral Combat Ship) but I am assuming we no longer have blue water navy aspirations and that FACs are no longer in their plans.

5) Naval Electronic Warfare Support Systems (NEWOSS). The NGPV were commissioned without these vital systems as mentioned by the National Audit Department report previously.

6) Possible purchase of Nakhoda Ragam class. RMN had confirmed that they had looked at the ships and found it suitable for its needs. It now depends on the Govt financial capability.

7) Minesweepers

8) And last but not least, ASW helicopters.

Is that all? Of course not, as I mentioned earlier, the answers were based on the questions posed to the PAT. The actual wish list is probably longer but if the same allocation in the RMK9 was allocated (around US$5 billion) you can safely assume that it will not be enough even for the systems mentioned in the interview!

–Malaysian Defence

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46 Comments

  1. do MAF don need the medium SAM??

    Marhalim: Yes indeed we need medium-range SAMs but with the expensive price tag and the impasse of whoever will take care of these assets either RMAF or Army means that its not going to happen very soon…

  2. I was told the Ingwee was the main contender. As long as the army is done with going for legay wire-guided ATGMs. The Javelin would be ideal, the only problem is its price tag. The UK paid 20,000 pounds for each Javelin!

  3. Like I said in my earlier post in the MPSS thread – we need better sensors and detection platforms! I actually missed out ‘basic transport requirements’ – so I would support the Cougar purchase and the 8X8 APCs. Lekiu Batch 2 and more Sukhois are nice to have in my view.

  4. Marhalim you said there’s not much interest in the Embraer. That would mean the RMAF would have to go for the SAAB, if it choses Erieye, which is no longer being produced and are ex-Swede airlines examples. I would prefer a jet powered platform as it can fly to a higher altitude and reach there faster. Eriye also unfortunatly doesn’t provide 360 coverage.

    I see no point in going for medium range SAMs as we don’t have enough enough MANPADs in the first place to provide basic low level protection for the 20 odd infantry battalions. Also lacking are early alerting devices like the British ADAD which cues the Starstreak.

    Marhalim: As I mentioned in the Erieye post previously, MINDEF chose the Saab 340/2000 as the current local Embraer rep fell out of favour with the previous administration. With the new administration there is a possibility that Embraer could get back in the picture if they decided to fund the AEW requirement which is most likely. RMAF btw I am told favour a jet for its AEW requirements…….

  5. Yes, a jet though more expensive to buy and operate provides advantages over a tuborprop based AEW. If you can fly higher you have better coverage. I find it interesting that in Swede service, Eriye is not used as an early alerting system but as an air control system for the Gripen.

  6. So that is the rough MAF RMK10 wishlist… This is my own wishlist based on the above.

    RMAF
    1) 3x Embraer EMB 145 AEW&C (if RMAF wants jets) or 3x ERIEYE+CN235 (commonize airframes with RMAF transports. The airframe can buy from spain EADS CASA if sensitive from indonesia)

    2) 12x Cougars + some nuri’s (12-18x)refurbished with carson upgrade kits as stopgap 10 years use.

    3) additional topups of 6-8x Beechcraft B200T MPA’s with AMASCOS systems (each base B200T’s around USD5mil+USD10mil for the AMASCOS) + upgrading the remaining 2 RMAF beechcrafts with the AMASCOS (other 2 already with AMASCOS), or 6-8x CN235’s with the AMASCOS system.

    ARMY

    As above but the AT with any latest russian weapons.

    RMN

    0) Get any hull (at least 2) to replace the Inderapura.

    1) NO lekiu batch 2!! Please replace that requirement with 2x ABSALON class ship, built locally if that is a must.

    2) NGPV batch 2. For RMK10 only 2 more plus weapons/combat systems fit for the 6 current NGPV’s. Can get 2 more NGPV’s for RMK11.

    3) as above

    4) For LCS, get those Korean Gomdoksuri PKX built locally. The korean navy is building 40 of these as their LCS. Built around 6-12, to offset getting fewer NGPV’s than the planned 21 ships. The ships already using Malaysian made waterjet systems.
    http://www.naval.com.br/blog/2008/12/17/pkx/

    http://www.naval.com.br/blog/2009/06/02/fotos-do-pkx-patrol-killer-experimental-da-marinha-da-coreia-do-sul/

    5) see no.2

    6) Yes please! The RBN already built 3 smaller ships (1st is the Ijhtihad, now in germany) to replace the nakhoda ragam
    http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/showallphotos.aspx?mmsi=508111118

    7) Korean Swallow class MCMV’s (lerici copy); or SLEP to kinabalu and jerai as per the other 2 ships, plus buying 2x nigerian monthballed lerici class ships similar to the 4 malaysian ships. The mahamiru and lerici is still one of the most advanced MCMV’s currently available in the world, even after all these years.

    Marhalim: I like the idea of turning the CN-235 for the Eiereye radar but the integration will cost us money. The Navy needs more MCMVs, the mothballed Nigerian sounds a good idea. The Ijhtihad now thats a real PV! But the name is so not Bruneian, more like the Gulf countries…..

  7. Why dont the malaysian government consider buying the polish variant of patria amv?..it has proven itself in afghanistan..

    Marhalim: Yes, the 8×8 APC contract is up grabs, last time it was the Piranha that got the thumbs up. Who knows this time around when they float the tender, the AMV might get lucky…

  8. I hope RMN will seriously consider to purchase the Nakhoda Ragam rather than the expensive Lekiu batch-II.

  9. more reason to forgo the 1MF1 dream…for the moment at least…even if it’s not for national defence/security the 500mil can surely find its other useful purposes…c’mon M’sia..RAKYAT didahulukan..pencapaian diutamakan

  10. Arent the pakistani already prchased the nakhoda ragam for GBP500 million in September?

    Marhalim: Not confirmed yet as they are also supposed to buy the MILGEM corvettes from Turkey and Type 42 destroyers from UK….

  11. As for the Lekiu Batch 2 program, which is believed to be benefited from the UK TYPE 45 Destroyer technology transfer, Absalon class is more preferable and or frigate variants of the MEKO 100 ship designation.

    But if our navy is really into the original program, I would say that this is not as wasting of money but in fact, the Singaporean Formidable-class is a way out to compete with this state-of-art frigate if the technology transfered program from the TYPE 45 successful.

    But personally, there’s no way the govt would procure such things in near future. Probably, only the BATCH 2 of the NGPVs program will be signed and continue along with the MPSS procurement during this LIMA 2009 for the navy.

    Marhalim: There is NO technology transfer from the Type 45 to the Lekiu Batch 2. They are just an updated variant of the Jebat/Lekiu based on RMN experience with the ships….

  12. According to a report published on the web, the report stated that there is a major technical problem with the Nakhoda Ragam and that’s why it’s not in service with the RBN.
    1. The Nakhoda Ragam vessels have laid in the shipyard for many years.
    2. The navy itself have many ships that can be upgraded to the current navy needs.
    3. If the navy is about to procure tha Nakhoda Ragam, all of the vessels of the class MUST be refitted to overcome the technical problem of the vessel which will cause a huge amount of money!
    4. The costs for re-building the ship can be benefited for the current navy needs like addind more weapons or upgraded the current weapons for the NGPVs.

    And from what I read from the report, now I know what is the problem of the Nakhoda Ragam. So I would say that if the Govt would opt for the Nakhoda Ragam (or anyone else) this is not a good idea as we are wasting our money towards something even a smaller navy wouldn’t want because of the vessels problem.

    The money for re-fitted the vessels can be used for upgrading the current NGPVs weapons suite or as an extra addition to the next NGPVs program. In fact, if we are about to procure the left-over vessel with a well known problem and the vessels are left in the shipyard for many years without any buyers is like buying something from ‘Spring cleaning’ and you should know that if you buy something from ‘spring cleaning’, please don’t expect anything good about it. Are we too DESPERATE for a new vessel?

    So the idea of getting the Nakhoda Ragam into our navy is not a good idea. Totally bad idea and would require such a big amount of money to get such ‘spring cleaning’ item.
    (Dear Marhalim, I think u should post about our Maritime Malaysia also, it’s quite interesting to know more about them!)

    Marhalim: Yes we are desperate for new vessels! I have not seen the report but it must be noted that when we bought the Laksamana-class corvette, they had been stored in Italy much longer than the Nakhoda Ragam class! I am not saying we should rush out and buy Nakhoda Ragam now without due diligence. Get an outside consultant to do it, probably an American or Aussie as we cannot hire a British to do it, for obvious reasons. Initially when the Nakhoda Ragams was passed over by Brunei, it was not due to the systems, most of it had been taken off the ship as it is now under the supervision of civilians but mostly due to the Royal Family anger that one of their own had to try make money from the deal. On MMEA, check out my posting on the other white elephant, the Amphibian. As for the rest of the MMEA, the patrol boats are even older than the Navy! What can one say more about that!

  13. Nah…with the Govt concerned about the budget deficit, spending will be tight.

    Normally every 5-7 years each service will get a prestige purchase. The last session army got some PT-91, Navy purchased submarines, and RMAF the Sukhois.

    This time around I think the Navy will get new MPSS, the Army a few 8×8 APC’s (maybe less than a 100) and the RMAF will get the Erieye OR Cougars.

    Other than that, I don’t think so – maybe some small purchases of ATGWs to replace expired stock maybe…

  14. The way things going, i dont thnink any of the wish list can be met before 2013. They are willing to go for deficit more than 10% for the next 2 fiscal years with the expectation that the economy will grow back to between 5% to 6% in 2010 to 2012. Where they hope that due to improvement in the economy, tax collection will improve plus post 2010 there might be GST being introduce. In between, if there are money to be spent/borrowed, it will go to infrastructure pump priming, outright defence procurement/import would be the least concern.

    Marhalim: Your time line is correct, the RM10K is to be announced next year, so it will take at least two years for the projects to go through the bureaucracy….

  15. The Javelin Anti Tank Missile is a the most advance anti-tank missile in the market now.Marhalim are you sure the US Government is willing to sell the Javelin to Malaysia?It uses the latest technology which is infrared imaging which means fire and forget engagement.Wow really big surprise if the US Government is willing to sell it to us.It shows under Najib, Malaysia-US relationship is now on a better footing.

    Marhalim: I am quiet sure about the Javelin being chosen for the MATGM tender. I was told that the US had no problems about us buying the system although the matter was never raised officially through the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which will notify the US congress of a possible purchase.

  16. The only thing in common the Type 45 will share with the Lekiu Batch 2s are some of the modular building techniques, nothing else. The main reason, apart from political, the Nahkoda Ragams never entered service is because of a shortage of personnel in the RBN and a lack of support infrastructure at the Muara naval base. Similiarly, plans drawn up years ago like raising a 3rd Bruneian infantry battalion and a Hawk squadron, have had to be shelved due to a lack of manpower. The Nakhoda Ragams are actually built to a higher standard than the Lekius.

  17. It is a lot worse than gonggok has said. Go look at the OE projections for 2010. We are running on empty.

  18. RMAF:20+Su-35(if the Mig-29’s do retire)
    2nd batch of Su-30MKM
    AWACS
    RMN:2nd Batch of Lekiu Frigate
    Dokdo class helicopter carrier(maybe with
    extra Harrier’s or F-35’s
    ASW helicopters and Kedah Class OPV’s

    MA:Additional batch of PT-91M’s
    The replacement of Sibmas and Condor APC’s

  19. Off topic again. Aplogies.
    Questions for the tank experts out there…

    Does the Vigy 15 commanders sight on the PT-91M include a thermal imager, or does the commander have to share with the gunner?

    Is there enough room in the turret for future upgrades like a BMS or an OWS?

    With regards to old vessels operated by the MME, the main question is whether the hulls and diesels on the Vospers are still in good condition. Apart from their age, the problem with the Vospers is their sea worthiness in very rough seas. The 2 former Marikh class OPVs are known to be notorious for their bad sea-keeping, according to navy friends.

  20. azlan
    No thermals or even II. Strictly a day sight.
    BMS…Yes…there should be a sign that reads, ‘Cadangan BMS ATM’.
    OWS…maybe. The current turret roof is pretty heavily cluttered. An OWS would almost certainly entail the removal of the .50 and VIGY to clear FOV and FOF. Would also need to factor the fly-away footprint of the ERAWA.

  21. What possible say for RM1.8 billion or USD500 million from 2010 to 2013:-

    Army
    1) 20 Javelin Launcher and 200 missiles- USD15 million

    2) 24-36 new 8×8 APC for UN op in Lebanon- say USD120 million

    3) 20 Launchers and 200 missiles of new manpad- say USD10 million

    RMN

    1) Additinal 16 launcher and 24 MM40 block 2 missile for the 6 NGPV- say USD100 million

    2) 3 set RIM-69 RAM- say USD70 million

    TUDM

    1) additional 20 Amraam say USD5 million
    2) Avionics and radar upgrade for MIG29 say USD30 million
    3) RVVAE-64 say USD 30 million
    4) 2 EC725- say USD120 million all in

    Just a wet dream list.

    Marhalim: They got the RVV-AE already, 150 of them I believe, so you could add Sidewinders to your list. We have not bought the snakes for a long time now….

  22. @azlan: No, the Vigy 15 does not have a independent thermal imager, only daylight vision.

    If it is true what was written in Asia Defence & Diplomacy August ’09 article that Sweden and Malaysia are working on a big defence deal including air, naval and land systems, than the BAe Archer might be a contender for the Caesar.

  23. DavidDCM and Mr.T T, thank you.

    Stupid question but how is the commander in the PT-91M supposed to designate targets for the gunner at night if there’s no thermal? What about the driver, has he got an II or a thermal? On another version of the T-72, if I’m not mistaken only the gunner has thermal but the commander gets an image on a small screen.
    I’m assuming thats theres room in the turret if a decision is made to install the Sagem Catherine at a future date. Sad to say, but it looks like not only did the army get an MBT which has reached the end of its growth potential but also one that is provided with no protection against KE rounds by its ERA.

    DavidDCM, I think there’s a slim chance of Archer as it cant fit into a C-130. It was also not offered to India because it exceeded the weight limit. I’m not sure if it can fit into an Airbus A400 though. What the army needs from Sweden I feel are Carl Gustav rebuilt kits and new 84mm rounds. Though its heavy, the Carl Gustav is still a very useful piece of kit, being much more accurate than the C-90 and
    RPG-7s.

  24. They got the RVV AE? Rather than Sidewinders i would opt for Asram and HMCS for the F18D

    Marhalim: Yup, for the Sukhois. The Russian delivered some 100 already with another 50 coming. I also like the Asraam and HCMS but that means we may have to do some upgrade on the Hornet, I am not sure the budget is enough for buying the missiles and an upgrade at the same time.

  25. I’m very surprised the R-77s have arrived so early, given that 11SQ is still in the process of developing it a combat doctrine for its MKMs and has not even reached operational status yet.
    As for the ASRAAM, I think we should wait. If we end up with Gripen, for sake of commonality we should also for for Sidewinder X for the Hornet. In the unlikely event however, the Super Hornet is ever chosen, then we can decide on integrating ASRAAM to both types of Hornets.

  26. From the reecntly announced budget, IMO, the best option to expand the defence will be:

    TUDM
    1. get additional MKMs as a trade-in for the Fulcrums, less acquisition cost but allows for maintenance commonality
    2. trade in the Hawks, retire the F5s and get a mix of second hand and brand new Gripens (can use Hungary/Cech purchase approach). we can use the Gripens for fast jet traninig (at least get 18). IIRC, BAE was the one which offered the Gripen to M’sia. So, there is a potential for a trade-in deal.
    3. ALso get in additional MB339Cs to increase advanced jet training. Anyway, we never had LIFT trainers in the first place so the Gripens can also be used as advanced trainers.
    4. also get the 12 Cougars, we need them.
    5. if we do need MPAs and AWACS (budget permitting), get the A319MPA, and mount the AWACS device on an A319 aircraft (or ATR72). we have a number of these A319s and have some sort of maintenance capabily in-country. Platform commonility helps alot.
    6. Get MSAMs and park it under TUDM. TUDM is more experience in Air Defence. TDM is only concerned with LLAD and does not have the skill set YET to operate these advanecd electronic equipment like TUDM; so put TDM personnel in TUDM on secondment. We can consolidate AD policies between TUDM & TDM later.

    TLDM
    1. Acquire two 2-3 MPSS/LPDs. no point in getting LPHs (i.e Dokdo), it will be a cash sink hole.
    2. Get the additional 6 NGPV IIs and get AAW & ASuW missiles for the NGPV Is. At lease there is “less” outflow of cash and keeps some jobs for the locals.
    3. also get 6 more ASW & ASuW Lynxs
    4. Jebat Batch 2 – no point in having just an upgrade of batch 1. There are newer technologies and concepts that we should look at around us and build a new requirement from there.

    TDM
    1. Purchase the 8X8s. Condors and Sibmas are getting too old for effective and economical use.
    2. continue with acquiring 155mm SPH (1 Regiment)
    3. buy more ATGMs

    IMHO, we should license build A109s & AW139s from Augusta Westland (Lile Turkey’s plan and Indo’s on ). Start a facility in-country; A109s are being used by TDM & Bomba, AW139s MMEA and soon to be Bomba. I bet there will be more orders locally for both helis. These helis make excellent LUH & MUHs that can be used by ATM, PDRM, MMEA, other agencies and local companies. This approach can create jobs, expand know-how and reduce maintenance costs.

    Just my opinion.

  27. Kubai, the only way we can really call an aircraft a lead trainer is if we configure the cockpit to make it similiar to the MKM. This is what the RAAF did for their Hawks, to train their Hornet pilots. You mentioned commonality and the AEW system. Why the A319? If a decision, however unlikely, is made to integrate Eriye on a non Saab or EMbraer platform, them surely the C-130 or 737 would make more sense.

    While I’m just guessing, I think the RMN would prefer a larger platform than the Lynx for ASW. In addition to longer range and endurance, something like Merlin also has space for on board preocessing gear, sonabuoys and and a dipping sonar. The only problem apart from its price is that no RMN frigate has a hangar large enough to accomodate Merlin or something in the same size category. As the Lekiu Batch 1s are still relatively new, it would make sense to software upgrade the NAUTIS and maybe even install an electro-optical sight to replace the Type V 3001 thermal in the near future.

    Marhalim: Actually, for the Nuri replacement, personally, I’d prefer the NH90, if they went for the NH90, the Navy will also be able to get the naval version. Its cheaper than Merlin but smaller of course….

  28. dear kubai,
    as i wrote in my last post, the rmaf personnel spoken to the reporters in an interview stated that there’ll be no additional sukhoi in future as a trade in for the mig-29s even the russian have offered them 6 additional mkm for the rest of mig fleet.

    ya i agreed with marhalim, i would prefer the nh-90 over the cougar for some reason but then the cougar also rather sound cool! but then it’s not the matter here. The matter is, will the armed forces replace the nuri in near future with all the opposition want the govt to be transparent and no tender tertutup blh dibuat.

    Let see the scorpene procurement, the opposition questioned over why the govt buat tender tertutup for the scorpene and the answer is very simple and obvious, it’s because no other country would do open tender for any of the procurement of strategic and high profile assets.

    So as for the govt near to purchase the cougar last time, the opposition have questioned the govt of why there never select the relatively cheaper chopper for the air force from russia instead of the cougar.

    Lastly, i believe that for this LIMA only the 2nd batch of the NGPVs will be signed for the navy. As for the rest, i don’t know if there’ll be any.

  29. Just a suggestion here, if MMHE can convert a tanker to a pirate-hunting patrol vessel, maybe our dearest PM can ‘talk’ to Air Asia’s TF for 1 or 2 his A320 to be converted to MPA’s. Put it as a national interest or Private Funded project or what ever people may called it.

    As a token of appreciation to Air Asia, tax exemption for 5 years maybe.

    Just a thought, though…..

    Marhalim: Better as MRTTs. There is no need to go to AA. PMB holds the key to MAS planes. The economic crisis means that MAS dont need all the planes, so converting the five A330s that remained in the fleet as MRTTs would be a much better option. I had been advocating this for some time now, check my previous posts….

  30. As most long term observers of the local defence scene already know, nothing that is stated by anyone is the final,until it is signed in ink and paid for. Whether or not the RMAF gets 6 additional MKMs will depend on a number of factors. If a future purchase of Gripens or Super Hornets is still many years away, additional MKMs for 11SQ would make sense. There is also the question of where all the Fulcrum pilots and ground crew are going when the Fulcrums are retired. And just how much the RMAF will be offered for its Fulcrums.

  31. I read in some blogs last year, out of the 200++ Gripen in the Sweedish airforce, they are only going to retain 100. SO may be a good deal if we can get a few dozen of them

  32. Thank you all for taking time to read and commenting my opinion.

    Dear Azlan,
    Yes, to acquire LIFT capability, we need to have similarity on the man-machine interface. My take is, we did not have LIFT capability in the first place, so having one is ideal but we have been living without it all the while. Therefore my opinion.
    A319, just an example that I have in mind. 737 will be good too, similar to the P8 Poseidon approach and the 737 AWACS as in Project Wedgetail. I put A319 because it was a cheaper option than P8i. As for the charlies, it may not be ideal to me because we may problems mounting weapons on it; and couldn’t see if there is room for a weapons bay. ATR 72 was the other option that I have in mind. A319, 737 and ATR are used by our 3 airlines; so I believe we can have something organised.
    If not Lynx, than lets go for a navalized EC 725 Super Cougar. IIRC, it has an earlier sibling that did just that(AS 532). So I believe it can be done. At least, TLDM will have a “common” platform with the TUDMs AS 535. If we can have Joint Force Command, we should also put Joint Logistics Command in its equation.

    DEar marhalim, I, too, agree that NH90 is best, I have always wondered why it didn’t get into the tender.

    Dear Shameer, I suppose the RMAF did not see the 2010 budget when they commented :). Now that they have seen the budget, they might change their mind. IMO, it’s better to trade in the MIGs for MKMs than attempt to look on our own buyers for them. It will be tough as we cannot provide guarantee for the new buyer. Else, all 16 units will end up being museum pieces or gate guards.

    Only if we can make MPA, AWACS and MRTT from the same platform….

    Dear kamal, precisely why I was thingking about the Hawk trade-ins (and paying) for a combination of excess Gripens and new ones..

    Just my thoughts, regards.

    Marhalim: The NH90 was not in the mix as they called for medium helicopters. NH90 is considered light twins in the same class as Blackhawks my other favourite..

  33. Those that is avocating the gripen purchase i think don’t realise that the cost of a single gripen is the same as 85-95% of one SU-30MKM. The 2nd hand gripens AFAIK is not being promoted, or sold by the sweedish forces. Only new gripens is sold, as what Thailand bought. The only cheap lightweight fighter in the future is the pakistan/chinese JF-17 at USD20mil apiece. I think what RMAF should do up till 2020 (RMK10-11) for its fighter fleet is get more 2ndhand hawk 200’s (from oman to reactivate the labuan sqn), 6-8 more hornets from canada, the kiwi MB339’s, 6 new MKM’s and sell off the MiGs. New fighters to replace the hawk and hornet can come after 2020. In the meantime RMK10-11 can concentrate on buying new AWACS, heli’s and MPA’s.

  34. Just saw the latest SIPRI report. I know it is full of mistakes but looking at the costs of Singapores 6 formidable frigates and the 2 vastergotland subs makes me wanna cry…

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/Si73kH8i-gI/AAAAAAAAB7A/rxkUePbmZ8E/s1600-h/Singapore_2008_1.JPG

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/Si73WaijkoI/AAAAAAAAB64/CiFsvf3Qzsg/s1600-h/Singapore_2008_2.JPG

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/Si73MlQ6h5I/AAAAAAAAB6w/3eyIKkX83WA/s1600-h/Singapore_2008_3.JPG

    Total costs of the 6 stealth frigates with all the weapons and equipment is the same as our 6 NGPV’s FFBNW, including all the overrun costs…

    And the 2 vastergotland subs cost only USD128Mil, a quarter the cost of one of our scorpene…

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/Si74fezdkdI/AAAAAAAAB7Y/rvQYpqGVQ74/s1600-h/Malaysia_2008_1.JPG

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/Si74VQg30fI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/QWPPkk2xFfs/s1600-h/Malaysia_2008_2.JPG

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/Si74KSEOQTI/AAAAAAAAB7I/FeE24xTz1So/s1600-h/Malaysia_2008_3.JPG

    Our military deserves better equipments with the given budget!!

  35. Helo Mr …,
    The cost of the 6 NPGVs rises because of the Boustead fianncial crisis dated back in 2005.

    The RSS ARCHER and the RSS SWORDSMAN of the formely known as the Vastergotland-class submarine was the Swedish Navy submarine dated back in 1986 and 1987 respectively which is later renamed and refurbished for the Singaporean Navy in 2005.

    Different from the Royal Malaysian Navy submarine of the Scorpene-class which is a brand new submarine based on a new design from the French-shipyard DCNS, the Vastergotland-class or now called as Archer-class submarine is the 80’s architecture of submarine with several modification to meet the Singaporean Navy standard which is equivalent to the Sodermanland-class of the swedish navy standard which is equipped with AIP.

    So it’s not that our armed forces getting junk equipment or something. You should further your research on the two submarine.

    Marhalim: Syamer, I believe the criticisms on the price of our arms are justified, and its not Bouestead financial crisis that cause the NGPV project cost to balloon. It was due to the decision by the govt to award it to Sdr Amin Shah, who was not interested in National Interest but himself….

  36. I know the NGPV cost balooned because of the PSC-ND (not Bouestead i might add) problems but even if the project stuck to the orginal cost we can pay off at least 5 of the 6 fully armed Formidable-class frigates. I hope that the cost of the singapore frigates can be a benchmark in our future frigate acquisition.

    The 2 singapore vastergotland even though 2nd hand, are fully upgraded with the latest systems and has AIP to boot for the price of the alleged “duit kopi” (or put it another way, 1/9th of the total cost) of the scorpenes. I know my stuff about the vastergotlands, they were launced in the early 90’s and mothballed as the cold war ended and Sweden suddenly has too much subs for its needs. So now which country do you think got the best value for money equipment?

    As a patriotic malaysian it is sad because deep down you know Malaysia can have what Singapore have, and more actually, rather than what we have now.

  37. Well, Singapore spends $11.45 billion on military defence in 2009 or about USD $8.2 billion or around 28 billion ringgit.

  38. Prior to the Scorpene, the closest the RMN came to receiving subs was when a deal was almost finalised for 2 T-96s and a Draken training boat from Kockums. The deal was scrapped and the 2 Lekius were ordered instead.

    To…. you mentioned you know about the Vastergotland/Archers, do you know if the CMS on the Archers have been replaced by a new one or upgraded? Does it have a towed array? Like the German navy, the Swedish navy never had a need for anti-ships missiles to be operated from its boats. Unlike the French, Sweden has years of operational experience in handling SSKs in littoral conditions and in hunting other subs in the same environment, just like Norway and Germany. For a number of years, the RSN also got ASW from hunting Indian Kilos in the Andaman sea, a part of a bilateral arrangement. In my opinion, the real value of the Archer deal is that all of Swedish experience and expertise will be shared with the RSN.

  39. What i heard the archers have upgraded systems from DCNS (SUBTICs) and thales flank array sonars, so the subs suite quite possibly be very similar to the rahmans.

  40. The Figure mentioned in SIPRI for Singapore purchase of the formidable and the archers might be true but may not be complete. The price mentioned could well may be include the hull only but not the integration and upgrade as in case of formidables, some degree of the integration and upgrades are done separately by the singaporean themselves.

    The key thing about the NGPV project or any future naval combat hull IMHO, is that unlike Japan, Korea, China and even Singapore, we do not have yet mastered the key technologies and does no have economies of scale. Thus when the ideas to built our own naval ships, we need to pay huge royalties for tech transfer, have to incur huge capex to prep up the shipyard with necessary jigs and off course the middleman mafia mentality, makes it not economical to build here in the first place. We could have save quite significantly if all the buildings is done in the original designer’s shipyard.

  41. It is unlikely that the combat and electronic suite will be similar to the Rahmans. I think that will be the first thing the RSN ensures.

    It has been mentioned by an industry insider that Singaporean Challengers and Archers are equipped with a mix of Swedish, Israeli, Australian and US technology; put together by Singapore`s DSTA.

    Apparently, Singapore got access to the Collins combat suite from Australia with the US`s blessings. The Collin`s combat suite is based on the US Sea-Wolf nuclear sub combat suite.

    RSN takes the view that sub construction technology has not changed much over the years. What matters is the electronics and sensors the submarines carry.

    However, the next evolution of subs is about to occur soon with a plethora of new generation sub designs. You can bet your last dollar that RSN will piggy-back someone`s else project. Most likely the Swedish A26 submarine project. Sweden has been asking Singapore to join the project officially. Singapore is very interested.

  42. As far as public knowledge go, Singapore, like the Germans and Sweden does not equip her submarines with anti-surface missiles. But we all know Israel does equip her subs with anti-surface missiles; with a lot of tinkering; with Germany`s blessings.

    Singapore tinkers with her submarines a lot. The challengers, whilst battle ready subs, have been described as technology mules for UDW warfare technology. That`s another reason they went Swedish…access.

    They been playing with the Challengers and classified UDW tech undisturbed and unchallenged in South China SEA for more than 10 years.

  43. Dear Nick,

    (i) According to Jane’s, France’s DCNS is believed to have supplied weapon control and tactical data modules from its SUBTICS combat system. Other upgrades include new Thales flank array sonar equipment, new Kollmorgen periscopes and the integration of the WASS Black Shark heavyweight torpedo.

    (ii) Sources have suggested that Australia supplied Singapore with some signature management technology but it is not the combat management suite (see point above).

    Cheers

  44. IIRC, the Collins uses the Seawolf/Virginia BYG-1 combat system (CMS). Singapore submarines (even for the Archer Class) are not able to use the same American supplied CMS due to the limited onboard power capability of the submarines. Keep in mind that the Collins are much bigger and have the power to run long range CMS, flank arrays, forward sensors etc.

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