VAB vs Anoa Redux

Pindad Anoa.

PETALING JAYA: VAB vs Anoa Redux. Thanks to Kamal, our regular reader, we now know that Sipri said that we bought the Panser Pindad or Anoa in 2010.

This entry is weird as I had reported before on this via The Malay Mail with the Defence Minister stating that we were still negotiating with the Indonesians at the point (when the story reported). Perhaps they missed that story and instead relied on a speculative piece that I did on the Panser earlier also in The Malay Mail.

Pindad Anoa.

I have re-checked and it appear that Sipri report is wrong. We did not buy the Panser, not yet anyway. Did Sipri missed my second story?

Anyways, the buzz on the 6X6 deal is that its dead for now. Talk is rife that the end user was not keen on the preferred choice of the ministry, the Panser. As usual when the two sides cannot see eye-to-eye on a procurement programme, it is shoved into the KIV bin, with the chance of being resurrected later. There are other issues as well but since I cannot afford litigation I left it at that.

VAB. By AlfvanBeem – Own work, CC0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=18254540

Why the resistance against the Panser? Its not because its made in Indonesia but instead its mostly related to support issues with the vehicle. Renault Defence had told the Army that its suppliers and the company will sell not spare parts for the vehicle if its purchased by Malaysia. The engine of the Indonesian-made vehicle is made by Renault and it only gave the license to Pindad to sell vehicles equipped with its engines to its home country only.

With Renault trying to sell the VAB to Malaysia, did you expect anything else? So what did we learnt from this episode? If a straight forward procurement programme for an urgent requirement can be derailed by “national interests what about others?

–Malaysian Defence

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19 Comments

  1. Yes its already reported somewhere else that the French will not supply the engine if Indonesia is to sell their Pindad to Malaysia. The French was trying their best to push us their VAB and wanted so badly to get the deal that they would take all action to sabotage any deals . Come to think of it, there are so many other makes which the Army can buy for replacements for the UN duty. No need to go for either the Indonesian or the French ones.
    Take a broader view and matters for our boys will be better.

    Reply
    The VAB was initially listed to meet the requirement as they had ready stocks (second hand); ease of training (as other VABs are already in Lebanon) and short distance (low shipping costs). Yes the UN will reimburse the cost but the world body will raise heaven and hell if we were to try to get premium prices for these vehicles. So no Adnans…
    The Panser and other 6X6s need long lead time for manufacturing and training.
    Wny they didn’t go for 8X8s? I have no idea but I am guessing its more likely got to do with the AV8.

  2. Marhalim,

    Is the whole scenario going to repeat itself if in case Malaysia intends to sell the AV8 to 3rd nation?

    Reply
    Sabotage? No one has to do that. Try selling Inspira in Bangkok at the same price as the Lancer and you will understand

  3. Several units of the panser has been sent to the Indonesian Army in Lebanon. It is reported that they did not use them because they prefer to use the second hand 4×4 VAB bought from Renault. Can some one check why??? And let us explore this topic in order to help the government not to make mistake

  4. Today it was reported in a defence online portal that the Netherlands is considering getting rid of its tank regiment-80 tanks and also its transport helicopter fleet to save costs. The Netherland tanks and heli’s are generally well maintained. So Malaysia can consider too as the tanks are the Leopards.

    And if the Chinooks are for sale cheap, why not take this opportunity to get a bargain too?

    Reply
    It ssemed that the momentum for armour has lost its steam, Lee. And our budget structure does not give us the opportunity to turn on a dime and take advantage of a fleeting opportunity. Everything need to documented and discussed thoroughly before permission are sought and approval are obtained in writing…..

  5. Dear Mahalim,
    If the gobvernment wants to they can act with astonishing speed. Witness how the 4 ex Sadam Hussein class corvettes were purchased from Italy?.How was the now sunk and burnt out logistics ship bought? If there is a will there is a way

    Reply
    You forgot about the Combat Boat 90 procured after the Sipadan kidnappings and also the KIFV and Eryx procurements. Yes it happened before but the orders were mostly from the PM Department or Finance Ministry projects. We have not seen such urgency from Jalan Padang Tembak, look at the 6X6 saga and its an Urgent Operational Requirement plus the fact the money is re-imbursable!

  6. Ym Lee, I’d love to see Leopard 2’s here but operating a 2 types of MBT’s is a recipe for disaster and will add to the logistics and commonality nightmare we already have. Training will also be an issue.

    The Anoa – by the time the beuracratic pen pushers and politican make a decision there might not be anymore Malaysian troops in UNIFIL. As UN troops are not expected and mandated to come into direct contact with the warring parties, should bullets start flying again, and that mines are more of a concern, perhaps we should really be looking at a specialised mine protected vehicle like the 12 on loan to MALBATT by the UN or stuff like the RG31 or Bushmaster. Why look at the Anoa at all? Come to think of it why wasn’t the AV4 offered?

  7. Dear YM Lee,
    Cogratulation for all your comments. But this time highly appreciate if you & the others could focus to the subject matters, otherwise it will end up no where. Let us together do it for our soldier in Lebonan & for the government ‘NOT TO MAKE MISTAKE’

    Reply
    I have no problem with readers going off subject

  8. one crazy idea that may or may not be cheap is to upgrade some 32 sibmas 6X6 with more powerful engine, add on additional armour so baliistic can be up from 7.62mm to at 50 calibre and change the cse 90mm turret to a 20mm oerlikon taken from some of the condor or a 50 calibre hmg which we had quite a number.

    The VAB and panser offered also does not offer protection more than 7.62mm, the VAB is even second hand.

    Sibmas theoretically can carry up to 11 people, plus it was not as extensively used/abused as the condor. But dont know whether we have the capability to do my crazy proposal

    Reply
    If its for the Lebanon mission its not crazy but as I mentioned before time was the essence. The original Sibmas or Ratels in South Africa were also armed with a 20mm gun

  9. The Inderapura was an awesome one off chance. The last USN Newport News LST in service sailed into Lumut and the crew just walked off. The benefit was no need for restoration after mothballs. We wanted to buy more but the costs of reactivation was prohibitive. It was a steal and a deal. That it burnt out while tied alongside speaks volumes of our own incompetence. BTW, the Board of Inquiry has still not been made public.

    Laksamana class was closed with an awesome shopping trip to Italy. The tiny officer’s mess was awesomely well appointed for the day as well. Much better than the Jebat for example.

    Aiyo…does everyone not understand that Kementah now has indirect route for wahyu?

    Reply
    BOIs are never released so its not new

  10. Dear Mr Kamal, to what I know, the VAB tested by the Army Fact Finding Team in France on Dec 2009 are VAB Mark I brand new (10 units ready stock). Renault offer to supply immediately 10 units VAB 6×6 Mark I and the balance VAB 6×6 Mark II at the same price. All VAB are at ballistic protection STAGNAG 4569 level 2 ie up to 7.62mm AP + Art splinter and with add-on armour it can goes up to STAGNAG 4569 level 4 ie up to 14.5mm AP. AND the Anoa PT Pindad is only up to level 2 which is only tested & confirm by ABRI not NATO. So, why they want to buy Anoa?

    Reply
    National Interest. And by the way what was the price offered by Renault. I am not too sure that there are brand new VAB 6X6 perhaps unused stocks with the French Air Force?

  11. A spin-off from the Inderapura deal was that an American company computerized the whole of the RMN’s logistcis/inventory system. Mister T should also have added that one reason given by kerajaan for the purchase of the 4 ex-Assad class corvettes [bought in 2 batches] was because of the delay in the Lekiu class’s delivery. Ficantieri also offered the RMN two Lupo class frigates made for Iraq.

    As mines and roadside bombs are more of a threat to UNIFIL troops why isn’t the requirement for a specialised mine protected vehicle like the Bushmaster or RG-31?? MALBATT already has 12 RG-31’s on loan from the UN.

    Kamal. The Sibmas is already slow and big, adding applique armour to it will make it heavier. Perhaps a useful role for the Sibmas would be to comvert some into specialized engineering vehicles. In the past the Sibmas ARV variant has been used for a lot of things apart from towing vehicles. We even used it to winch out a crashed landed Aloutte 111.

  12. The USS Spartenburg County was retired from the USN and the RMN immediately took her over. This was done at the Naval Amphibious Base at Little Creek, Virginia in 1995 and not at Lumut.

  13. Off topic but…

    Our neighbour thailand just joined the sub club by buying ex germany type 206A subs…

    Reply
    I assumed its for training before committing to new subs when funds are available

  14. Thanks azlan and andy,

    I thought i read somewhere last year that the VAB is not brand new but a rebuilt version from ex French airforce. But i may be wrong.

    Anyway defense studies reported that malaysia already ordered the anoa and delivery slated by end of the year

  15. Dear Kamal,

    Latest what I got both of your findings are not true – the VAB tested by the Army is brand new and the Government did not finalize any purchase yet. Let hope PT Pindad withdraw their offer if it is true that the Anoa is facing technical problems.

    Reply
    Yes the Mark II are new as it was unveiled at Eurosatory last year but Mark Is I am not too sure of its status but I am taking your word for it that’s its brand new

  16. Wwell,

    As UN troops and not required to be put into any firing situations, then there are plenty of vehicles which we can consider. The MRAPS-which are mine and IED can be considered.They are in production, tested in both Iraq and Afghanistan, spares are easy to get-due to use of COTs parts and are being reordered (which proves that they are really useful). No european mat sabuns has yet to die when travelling in one and being hit.
    So instead of conventional armoured vehicles, why not consider these vehicles? They may look like a bus but then, they are proven

    Reply
    The Buffalo looks like a bus?

  17. Thank andy, appreciate it. Defence Studies are indonesian based so i guess i have to take what they say with a pinch of salt, but SIPRI, well dont know about that….

  18. I’m amazed with the level of ignorance you people show here. Anoa has 2 options for engines: renault and mercedez. Get life people!

    Reply
    And your point is?

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