SHAH ALAM: Dr M Visits Turkish Aerospace. As part of his four day official visit to Turkey, Prime Minister Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad visited Turkish Aerospace (TAI), country’s main aerospace and defence company. During the visit to TAI’s facility in Ankara, Dr Mahathir and delegation were given a presentation of its products.
And its not just a presentation but a flyby which included the TAI Hurkus turboprop trainer and the ATAK attack helicopter.
The Hurkus trainer prototype and the ATAK helicopter performing the flypast for Dr M and delegation. TAI
It is likely also other TAI aircraft including the Anka UAV and the Gokbey utility helicopter took part in the flypast. The Anka as you are aware is one of the UAV competing for an order for a RMAF requirement, which had been approved and set for funding in next RMK.
Dr Mahathir is presented a drawing of the Anka during his visit to TAI. TAI
As the government had already announced that all future contracts will decided via open competition, the Anka will have to show its worth once the tender is open. However, as defence contracts are ultimately decided by the politicians, one must say that Anka is having its day in the sun. Whether it will survive the scrutiny in the next three or four years, is beyond me.
Gokbey helicopter prototype. TAI
It is unclear whether Dr Mahathir and his delegation is visiting the FNSS factory as part of the visit though. FNSS as you are aware is the partner of DRB Hicom’s subsidiary, Deftech, which is the main contractor for the Gempita 8X8.
On the Way. Gempita Mortar carrier firing a 120mm round. 12th RMR
As for the other products of TAI, the Army still has the requirement for attack and utility helicopers. The ATAK is already in production and in service with the Turkish military. The first Gokbey prototype only flew recently so it is unlikely to be offered for the RMN maritime helicopter programme.
TAI Future Fighter. TAI
Turkish shipyards or their local partners could also be involved in the RMN FIC tender though admittedly I have no idea who they are. As for the future, the TAI future fighter could also even be in the mix for the MRCA programme.
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Plenty of things that we can get from Turkey; from small arms (mp5 and all its derivatives, anti tank missiles and mortars), tanks, armored vehicles, even fighter jets.
I think we should do joint development on our own version of 5th gen fighter jets. If indonesia can do it, so can we. Malaysia is one of top players in aeronautic industry after all
We bought quite a number of MP5s from Pakistan. We just don’t have a requirement for any more.
It’s not a question of whether we “can” but whether we “should”….
A lot of cash will have to be pumped in and the question is whether the whole exercise will reap any tangible benefits? We don’t have the industrial base or the economics of scale and almost everything that goes on the jet; from the engine to the radar to the cockpit instrumentation’s; will still have to sourced from foreign suppliers.
I like Turkish defence hardware as mostly are geared toward Nato standards (Turkey being a Nato country), but sometimes on a whim they go off tangent and get themselves some S-400. Understandably, since their F-35 was sanctioned meant they aren’t soon to get the hardware they paid for.
As much as I love to have Malaysia name in a 5th gen aircraft project, let’s not go straight away there.
Here we go again
Another Pakistan story
Other way around. They wanted S-400 first, and yet retain their F-35 order. US told them to choose one or the other. They chose S-400, so that’s it – no 35s.
“The Marine Corps is no longer accessing WSOs. However, all WSOs currently in service and training will be utilized in F/A-18Ds until the platform is deactivated or there are no more WSOs in the fleet, whichever comes first. Further, we do not expect the Marine Corps to man F/A-18Ds with two pilots (i.e. a pilot replacing the WSOs spot) once we reach a point where there are no longer WSOs in the Fleet. A pilot can fly and execute all missions in an F/A-18D without a WSO in the backseat (i.e. keeping the seat empty). Having a WSO simply adds increase proficiency in certain mission skills, such as FAC(A) [Foward Air Control-Airborne].”
This follows the USMC integrating ex-USN single seaters into its previously exclusively two seater squadrons.
“We bought quite a number of MP5s from Pakistan.”
Would you know examples of anything else we’ve bought from Pakistan, aside from Baktar Shikan?
106mm RCL ammunition perhaps? Though I would think the guns themselves came from Korea, like the jeeps they came with. I was also hoping someone has a picture of those jeeps in our service, have not succeeded in finding any yet.
The SAF bought the guns with M151 jeeps from the US to provide support for their infantry battalions. They later sourced rounds from Pakistan.
“Shit – Here we go again – Another Pakistan story”
Correction. It ought to be “Shit – Here we go again – Another one who’s so cleverly found a source that is cheaper, better and free of the political conditions that can render our Hornets inoperable by withholding the source codes on a whim.”
We bought Anza mk 2 Manpads, RPG-7V (curiously, the GOF sourced theirs from Bulgaria), laser designator and even sent our exocets for life extension to Pakistan.
Also, Pakistan-made mp5 are exported to the US and american really like their quality and affordability. They’re also used by some local PD/sheriff departments iirc. With HK being on their high moral pedestal and refusing to sell their guns to third world countries with questionable human rights problems, it’s sellers market for countries like Pakistan with access to HK toolings and jig
Funny enough, Vietnam bought these mp5 clone from Pakistan as well and it riled the indian so much that it became a national issue and they tried to counter-offer with indian-made Sterling.
The laser designators used by PASKAU.
The MM-38s were also relifed in Pakistan.
Quite a few pics of the jeeps appeared over the years in Tempur and Perajurit. I have a pic; taken in 1989 when the army did a 3 day exhibition at Central Market. The guns were Spanish.
On the S-400
They wanted any anti-ballistic missile system to protect their airspace, specially from iranian threats. They wanted patriot with ToT but was told no by Obama administration. They went with S-400 as the russians can quickly deliver the system plus given ToT promises, only after turkey signed the S-400 deal does US approve the patriot deal, which turkey say they cannot cancel their S-400 deal.
The hornets can fly misions without rear WSOs. Aussie super hornets are all twin seaters, and usually flown operationally with just the front seater.
The most numerous item we bought from pakistan is the RPG-7 launchers.
I’ll believe that when I see it work out
Dr M wants to invest in Turkish aerospace industry
When Turkish aerospace itself is reliant on US and European companies
So we found yet another “independent” supplier. Good, we can continue paying for exclusivity while everyone else in the region chooses an ally. Fine, whatever.
You’re making your bed, you will have to sleep in it. When the crunch comes, I won’t be sympathetic.
“They wanted patriot with ToT but was told no by Obama administration. They went with S-400 as the russians can quickly deliver the system plus given ToT promises, only after turkey signed the S-400 deal does US approve the patriot deal, which turkey say they cannot cancel their S-400 deal.”
Haven’t you missed a few key points?
The idea that there is no tolerance for an F-35 operator also operating the S-400 has been evident since the earliest days of the JSF program, let alone in today’s world.
The truth is there were many off ramps on Turkey’s path to the S-400, and Erdogan missed all on purpose. Long after the S-400 deal was signed, Turkey was allowed to participate in the F-35 programme Turkish F-35 crew have been allowed to continue their training in the US through to the end of this month. (Surely to the objections of any right-minded F-35 participant).
His excuses don’t even add up. He was told and he acknowledged that Turkey can’t buy the HQ-9. Then his excuses for not buying Patriot were at various times that ToT was not offered, that it does not meet requirements in the first place, and most recently, that it cannot be delivered quickly enough to meet some “imminent threat.”
It’s ironic that Turkey won’t even consider a compromise of the kind it forced Cyprus into in the 1990s when Cyprus bought the S-300.
None of these things were inevitable. Was Patriot ToT a good enough reason to upend the relationships that keep Turkish planes flying, and oblige treaty partners to come to Turkey’s defence in case of external attack? Was any reason?
The icing on the cake is the TuAF has relied heavily on Israeli industry, and that is another bridge the pharaoh has burned. They’ve had to start stockpiling F-16 parts in case those might be embargoed as well. Again, has Israel done anything to Turkey to justify what Turkey is doing to itself? And will Turkey hurt more from this than Israel?
“So we found yet another “independent” supplier.”
Have long heard that US weapons can’t fire on our neighbours, will have parts embargoed if we threaten our nenighbours, can be remotely taken over like MH370, are more expensive than Russians weapons etc.
Somehow it never occurs to people that if something is sold without such restrictions, it should cost MORE and not less.
But this is the country we live in. paultan.
“Good, we can continue paying for exclusivity while everyone else in the region chooses an ally.”
Be careful what you wish for, especially when your wish is unspecific.
I suspect we already have chosen an ally. The government’s tone on them this year has been markedly different from before and just after it had been elected. We’re just teasing and slow-walking them the way we do everybody. Like Trump, we think practicing strategic ambiguity in our public pronouncements gives us bargaining power- but we have none of the leverage.
We did not pick an ally, just trying not to annoy those in our region.
I dont think we will and we can pick a side anyway. We have been firmly in the non-aligned movement for long. A lot of our friends (like india and pakistan for example) are even foes with each other. With china rapidly raising to be a global superpower, we need to show a friendly face to them, while being firm maintaining our sovereign rights with our territorial waters and EEZ without making fuss publicly.
>”Be careful what you wish for, especially when your wish is unspecific.”
I know what you mean.
>”Long after the S-400 deal was signed, Turkey was allowed to participate in the F-35 programme”
To be fair, that was US “giving chance” to them to cancel the S-400 deal down to the last minute, practically until TEL and missiles were delivered.
Anyway, the anti-US stance of Erdogan’s administration is hardly a secret.
What exactly does “non aligned mean”? If we go by the core definition of what it means: are we really “non aligned”?
We may not be a U.S. treaty ally but we train more regularly and comprehensively with them than with any other country. The number of USN ships docking at our bases and ports has risen over the years. It is also very telling that first SEA country the F22 participated in an exercise was here and our sub support ship is certified to operate with USN boats. Coming second in terms of bilateral exercises and exchanges is Australia; we host the only permanent base Australia has on foreign soil and an Australian heads HQIADS. Not to mention that both countries are top destinations for sending our people for training.
We say we want to be friends with everyone but for national interests we have long gone out of way to ingratiate ourselves with the old rich Saudis and Emiratis. By doing so we’ve effectively taken sides in the Sunni/Shia Cold War currently being waged; irrespective of the Defence Minister’s recent visit to Iran which was a waste of the taxpayer’s ringgit and won’t lead to any tangible benefits.
So, irrespective of the fact that we’re officially “non aligned”; in reality we!re not: irrespective of the fact that were not non NATO U.S. allies like the Philippines or Thailand and that we don’t officially go out of our way to ingratiate ourselves with Uncle Sam.
At the same token we haven’t “taken or chosen sides”; we’re just closer to some compared to others when it comes to security issues and are doing what smaller countries have been doing for centuries : hedging bets and playing off one big power against another.
… – “The hornets can fly misions without rear WSOs”
They can be flown with just the pilot but I’m not sure what SOPs are. Nuris and Cougars can be flown without an AQM but SOPs always call for a AQM; irrespective of whether it’s an operational, test or training sortie. The Sparrow was fired by the back seater who also operated the air to ground ordnance and the targeting pod. Who fires AMRAAM.
Chua – “To be fair, that was US “giving chance” to them to cancel the S-400”
Look at it from a Turk perspective. The U.S. actively supports a Kurdish faction that is hostile to Turkey and the Turks harbour suspicions that there was some level of U.S. support for the coup plotters.
Erdogan is a demagogue: he has a voter base to appease. Caving in to U.S pressure would show that Turkey as a sovereign nation has bowed to the dictates of another nation when it comes to choosing what it can or can’t buy.
Russia too plays a vital part of the narrative. It’s a dominant player in Syria, shares a Black Sea coast with Turkey and has economic/ trade ties with Turkey. Erdogan can’t annoy the Russians: irrespective of the fact that the U.S. is far more important in the larger scheme of things.
One can point out that Turkey, by buying the S400 is not being a good NATO member but Turkey still maintains it commitments to NATO and doing what’s best for NATO may not be the same as doing what’s best for Turkey.
“One can point out that Turkey, by buying the S400 is not being a good NATO member but Turkey still maintains it commitments to NATO and doing what’s best for NATO may not be the same as doing what’s best for Turkey.”
The idea that Erdogan can’t be seen bowing to others is ironic since it was Turkey that started pursuing the S-400, and no one need tell Turkey that to any F-35 programme participant (which Turkey is by its own volition) a participant acquiring the S-400 is unacceptable. I’m not sure that upending years of work hat Turkey has had and would otherwise have with the F-35 programme is worth the S-400 or best for Turkey. ToT is not a standard part of any purchase. They have to recognise that one wins some and loses some (indeed the work Turkey has with the F-35 includes ToT and co-production).
You could say that ToT was the primary reason Turkey stuck to the S-400, but Erdogan’s actions as a whole suggest there were other reasons as well.
There’s the fact that he has burned bridges with Israel, which has not done or dictated anything to Turkey (or Erdogan personally), or backed a group that is hostile to them. He’s also being dictatorial at home and needs to redirect popular anger.
Our policy towards Israel has a few similarities here and there.
“With china rapidly raising to be a global superpower, we need to show a friendly face to them, while being firm maintaining our sovereign rights with our territorial waters and EEZ without making fuss publicly.”
With respect to the EEZ, what we need is to not give them reason to escalate at sea or punish us economically.
It is quite another matter when we send a minister to tour and say good things about their Uighur camps, or have high leaders use language that sides with Huawei. I wouldn’t say these actions are necessary to defend or advance our position.
Hi..just to give my 2 cents…
Hmmm…all these pros and cons by expert advise…
My take..what ever that moves on land lets buy or JV from turkey…they know better then us n we can learn a lot from them.
Anything that flies..n need special attention n who is the master of it…we either buy from europe or U.S.
Anything that sails we do it locally with parts source from europen countries.
And lastly all equipments bought must be bought in bulk , in the name of commonality ( > 50 ) .
RedSot – “And lastly all equipments bought must be bought in bulk , in the name of commonality”
What we buy should be in “sufficient” (as opposed to “bulk”) numbers to meet our requirements and as far as possible we should try to reduce our already considerable footprint.
RedSot – “Cheers oldboys”
And to you too “old boy”.
I believe I had my fill last night.
Let’s see if anything tangible results from all this talk about cooperation with Turkey. It will take a long term partnership and the needed investments and political will. On our part we’ll also have to ensure that whatever transfers of technology is provided is worth the taxpayers ringgit and is something we can expand on for long term tangible benefits.
No point engaging in collaboration if there’s no long term political will to sustain it and if it only leads to short term results.
Over the last few decades we’ve received several offers for long term strategic collaboration which would have included technology transfers and joint development
but we never had the political will to make actual long term commitments.
South Korea is a good example; long before it approached Indonesia it had already expressed keen interest to not only sell us stuff but to also collaborate with us on various things.
Let’s see what happens.
; without that we’ll probably just
Like I said earlier on…we must not have any oldboys thinking…just enough…just sufficient…what is enough.?
See our neighbours do you think they have that many tank drivers n operators which resulted them buying in the hundreds..? Their jets which is accumulated more than malaysia n indonesia…?
These equipments are going to aged oldboys…no spares n the only way is canibalization….n how about attritions…u guys know better then that.
With any equipments that malaysia bought previously in the name of national intrest does not bear fruits….agree….but we just have to keep trying n make things happen..why these SIFAT MENYERAH…guys..?
Do you think our neighbours success in terms of JV comes easy n cheap..?
Do we have the expertise to produce made in malaysia peoducts without learning from others..?
We cannot follow Pakistan way….that is producing their own APC from ground up…that was way way back n their ambitions…what we need is sub contractors producing n supplying all the needed parts for the said equipments n at least 50% of articles in 1 equipment whilst as usual the vital parts will come from the OEM country…is this new or stale statement…?
Then again ATM cannot grow so are their affiliated companies which deals n think for ATM if oldschool thinking are still thier bread n butter….I have my guts….gutted out n thanks for the reply…
Very insightful and worthy of consideration.
A thousand cheers to you “oldboy”.