The Joneses..Indonesia Buys Rafales

Dassault Rafale. Anthony Pecchi

SHAH ALAM: Dassault Aviation has signed a contract with Indonesia for the purchase of 42 Rafale Omni-role fighters in Jakarta today. From Dassault Aviation:

(Saint-Cloud, France, February 10, 2022) – In the presence of the French Minister of the Armed Forces, Florence Parly, and the Indonesian Minister of Defence, Prabowo Subianto, the Chairman and CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, and the Air Vice Marshal Yusuf Jauhari, Head of Defence Facilities Agency of the Indonesian Ministry of Defence, signed the contract for the acquisition by Indonesia of 42 latest-generation Rafale aircraft, at a ceremony held today in Jakarta.

The Rafale acquisition for the Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara (Indonesian National Army Air Force) includes a complete turnkey solution, with a comprehensive package that covers aircrew training, logistical support for several Indonesian air bases, and a training center with two full-mission simulators.

The Rafale’s unique “omnirole” capability will provide Indonesia with a tool for sovereignty and operational independence, reinforcing its role as a major regional power.Indonesian industry will benefit from a substantial industrial return, not only in the aeronautical sector, but also in all the other major areas of cooperation relating to the broad portfolio of dual technologies mastered by Dassault Aviation and its industrial partners, Safran Aircraft Engines and Thales.

“It is a great honor for Dassault Aviation to see the Rafale join the highly prestigious Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Udara air force, and I would like to thank the Indonesian authorities for the trust they have placed in us. This contract marks the start of a long-term partnership that will see Dassault Aviation rapidly step up its presence in the country. It also demonstrates the strong bond between Indonesia and France and reinforces the position of the world’s largest archipelago as a key power on the international stage. I am confident that the Rafale will meet the operational needs of the Indonesian Air Force, actively contributing to the defence and sovereignty of the Republic of Indonesia”, said Eric Trappier on this occasion.

Two French Air Force, a single seater and a twin seater taking off in June 2021. French Air Force picture

Apart from the contract for the Rafales, France and Indonesia also signed three MOUs regarding the procurement of two Scorpene submarines, satelittes and production of ordnance.

–Malaysian Defence

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59 Comments

  1. Congratulations to Indonesia for the purchase of 42 Rafales.

    For us malaysians, no need to fret. We dodged a big bullet not buying Rafales a few years ago.

    RMAF should concentrate on getting LCA/FLIT, things in numbers that we can afford to fly regularly. When that is done, our top of the line MRCA should be stealthy ones that would still be on top of the game for at least 30 more years into the future.

    Getting whatever expensive brand new non stealthy MRCA now, Typhoons, Rafales, Gripen NG, Super Hornets etc is a waste of money when others are now buying F-35 and such.

  2. Nama pun abang besar kan….
    Nak harap siapa kat Asean ni boleh satukan suara Asean lawan China?
    Good for them….

  3. @gonggok
    “When that is done, our top of the line MRCA should be stealthy ones that would still be on top of the game for at least 30 more years into the future”

    It is true RMAF priority is LCA/FLIT because the money is scarce to buy LCA/FLIT and MRCA at the same time. The Migs replacement is already on hold for years.
    There is nothing wrong buying a 4.5 gen fighter now, they will fly more than 30 years. Of course they will be obselete so any 5 gen fighter which ever RMAF will buy someday. A lot of factors to be considered. The right term is “low observable” jet fot 5 gen fighter. It still can be detected or defeated, they are not invicible even to 4.5 gen fighter. Tech is growing everyday we can not wait the latest invicible fighter produced.

  4. @gonggok
    “When that is done, our top of the line MRCA should be stealthy ones that would still be on top of the game for at least 30 more years into the future”

    It is true RMAF priority is LCA/FLIT because the money is scarce to buy LCA/FLIT and MRCA at the same time. The Migs replacement is already on hold for years.
    There is nothing wrong buying a 4.5 gen fighter now, they will fly more than 30 years. Of course they will be obselete so any 5 gen fighter which ever RMAF will buy someday. A lot of factors to be considered. The right term is “low observable” jet fot 5 gen fighter. It still can be detected or defeated, they are not invicible even to 4.5 gen fighter. Tech is growing everyday we can not wait the latest invicible fighter produced.

  5. Romeo,

    Now is already the dawn of the 5th generation fighters. There is no reason for RMAF now to buy expensive brand new 4th gen fighters that we would be stuck with for 30-40 years into the future. We should not be flying new but obsolete 4th gen fighters 30-40 years into the future when the exact same money we could use to buy 5th gen fighters now.

    But it is a different scenario for RMAF to buy used 4th gen fighters for cheap now, so we could have a stopgap to use for 10 years at most.

  6. Indonesian politicians are good at boosting their countrymen nationalism thru procuring defence assets…even in hard times

  7. Gonggok – ”Getting whatever expensive brand new non stealthy MRCA now, Typhoons, Rafales, Gripen NG, Super Hornets etc is a waste of money when others are now buying F-35 and such”

    No doubt that’s your opinion but it’s not ”a waste of money” because legacy platforms will stil be operated by others for a number of years [not everyone can buy F-35s in numbers], a legacy platform is not totally impotent against a F-35 [its low observable not invincible or invisible per see] and various factors come into play, including whether a F-35 [or a similar gen platform] is operating as part of a networked centric environment.

  8. To those learned, i have a question, why TNI AU is planning to have Rafael AND F15? isn’t it better to have a single type as both are almost of a same MRCA? Or are they still just don’t want to be bargoed again?

  9. @nazem

    Indonesia purchases 6 Rafale only for first batch. Their planned is 42 Rafale for a total. Same like their A400M purchases. They bought 2 A400M with a total of 4 aircraft planned.

  10. Indonesia also planned to buy Scorpene-class sub. I believed this because they had problem with Nagapasa-class and also to replace old Chakra-class. I read somewhere that till now their Nagapasa-class still facing problem and likely unable to execute patrol mission (CMIIW). Good for them to choose proven design like Scorpene-class.

  11. Just hours after signing the rafale deal, USA published the DSCA approval of up to 36 F-15ID for 13.9 billion dollars.

    http://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/indonesia-f-15id-aircraft

    looks like the offered F-15ID specs are on par or even better than Singaporean F-15SG. That will put any plans for our own Su-30MKM upgrades into perspective.

    The DSCA announcement is the maximum number that USA is approved to offer to Indonesia. With 42 Rafales signed, it can go both ways, either lower number of F-15ID bought, or there will be a reduction of Rafale numbers for more F-15ID. I would be surprised if in the end Indonesia would take up all 42 Rafale and 36 F-15ID.

  12. Rock,

    No it’s not because of problems with the Type 1400s per see but because they desire a newer design, one based on newer tech. The sole remaining Type 209 is undergoing a refit and will be in service for at least a decade more. Issues related with the Type 1400s are not because it’s unproven; it’s actually more proven than Scorpene; based on the Type 209 which has far more users and been around for far longer.

  13. Why we cannot afford to buy 4th gen fighters now?

    We need to defend our country from J-20, The future carrier based FC-31/J-35, and the H-20 stealth bomber.

    In 2040 do you want RMAF to fly Rafale or F-35 instead?

    Anyway the Indonesian Rafale breakdown is for 12 twin seaters and 30 single seaters

    So if all options are taken

    42 Rafales at 8.1 billion dollars
    36 F-15ID at 13.9 billion dollars

    That is a total cost of 22 billion dollars

    To put that into perspective,

    RMN gowind project price ceiling is RM9 billion, or 2 billion dollars in 2011.

    Finland recent purchase of 64 F-35A costs 9.4 billion dollars.

    Rock,

    South Korea build those Nagapasa submarines exactly to what the contract was signed with indonesia. It was Indonesia who deleted torpedoes and anti ship missiles from the contract to get 3 submarines for just 1 billion dollars. Same contact concept for SIGMA PKR frigates, the original contract does not include weapons. Pay peanuts you must expect to get monkey models.

    Now they are blaming South Korea that those nanggala subs are toothless?? Just pay for new torpedoes, missiles and integration to the subs, like on the SIGMA PKR frigates.

  14. gonggok – ”That will put any plans for our own Su-30MKM upgrades into perspective.”

    That’s on a platform basis and remains to be seen as to how extensive any future upgrade will be. AESA, full glass cockpit, towed decoy, new MAWS, etc? Endless possibilities but so dependent on that vital element : hard cash. The longer it takes we may reach a point where we decided that only a limited upgrade is needed with the remaining cash being put to better use elsewhere.

    If the TNI-AU indeed adds F-15s to its current force structure of ordered Rafales and already operated F-16s and Su-27s/30s; in addition to the tremendous training/support difficulties they face; it remains how soon they will rectify the current lack of a AEW platform and the other ISR assets and command/control set up they need to effectively deploy their fighters.

  15. Romeo – ”It is true RMAF priority is LCA/FLIT because the money is scarce to buy LCA/FLIT and MRCA at the same time. ”

    It’s a well known and widely reported fact that LCAs/LIFTS are the priority for now and that a MRCA buy will only occur around the 2030 timeframe. Both will not happen at the ”same time”.

    Romeo – ”The right term is “low observable” jet fot 5 gen fighter. It still can be detected or defeated, they are not invicible even to 4.5 gen fighter.”

    By virtue of being ”low observable” and highly networked a 5th gen platform will enjoy tremendous advantages over legacy platforms but legacy platforms will not be totally impotent.  

    Romeo – ”A lot of factors to be considered.”

    Indeed and the main one is that whether it’s a Su-27 or a Mirage 2000 or a F-22; fighters don’t operate in a vacuum but need enablers to be able to perform to their optimum.

    Romeo – ”There is nothing wrong buying a 4.5 gen fighter now,”

    Two sides of the coin. If a certain air arm badly needs legacy jets because of immediate operational requirements then yes but if it can afford to wait and used current resources on other badly needed things; then no. As it stands the bulk of fighters operated in the region are ”legacy” and this will not significantly change in the coming years. Only Singapore has made commitments to the F-35 and even then; hardly enough to replace its other legacy fighters in the near future.

    Should we make the transition to a 5th gen platform? Yes no doubt but 5th gen platforms are not a panacea; they haven’ totally done away with legacy platforms or made them obsolete and they don’t operate in a vacuum.

    Romeo – ”The right term is “low observable” jet”

    People get a hard on with ”stealth” a highly misleading term. Just like how they loosely apply ”game changer” and ”force multiplier” without fully understanding what these terns signify.

    Azhar – ”To those learned, i have a question, why TNI AU is planning to have Rafael AND F15? ”

    local sources have indicated that the TNI-AU would rather consolidate and add to the
    F-16Vs. It’s acutely aware that operating such a mix fleet is a very messy and expensive exercise as little to no commonality; different support gear and separate training and support infrastructures have to be established and maintained.

    The political leadership is fixated on the need not to be overly dependent on one single supplier [East Timor plays a part] and various political considerations relating o bilateral relationships; industrial/technological cooperation and other things also playa big part. Bear in mind that Indonesia is still involved in the South Korean 5th gen programme as a n investor/partner although things are somewhat slow with theKoreans some time ago complaining about late payments.

  16. Indonesian here, regarding to our Nagapasa class problems I don\’t know the details (and those who knows are tight lipped), but some of it includes excessive noise, heat and vibration, underpowered batteries and some problems regarding the weapon systems that didn\’t even allow them to do the torpedo test firing (there\’s could even be more problems that I don\’t specifies as one of those people that knows said if you know how big the problems are then you will understand why Prabowo won\’t continue the contract). I mean the problems must be quiet big because these submarines spending most of their times on their dock instead of on missions. Also, there is plan to upgrade these submarine that is still brand new. In fact the submarine offer from Jerman include the this upgrade.

  17. The F-15 is an old but not outdated fighter. It is currently the US Air Force’s heaviest armed air superiority fighter. It doesn’t have stealth but it has a potent radar. It carries more missiles than the F-22 and F-35. If the F-22 and F-35 were to carry the same amount of missiles as the F-15 (i.e. externally), they will loose their stealth advantage. It might not be as maneuverable as the F-35, but it has the raw power to chase down a F-35 if it sees one.

    It remains a very potent fighter in most combat situations. South Korea, Israel, Japan and Indonesia use or will use it. The United States Air Force is replacing its older airframes with new F-15.

    8xF-15 for Malaysia would in my opinion be superior to the 18xSU-30MKM we currently have – in terms of proven performance, reliability, dependability, and sustainability (based on our F-18 experience).

    Lastly, in all honesty, I believe if a SU-57 or J-20 sees a F-15, it will hope the F-15 doesn’t see it. If it does, it would be better for the SU-57 and J-20 to scoot off then get chased down by the Strike Eagle.

  18. Kel-‘ 8xF-15 for Malaysia would in my opinion be superior to the 18xSU-30MKM’

    Obviously. A better radar [one with a full TF capability], a better nav/targetting pod, a full glass cockpit, engines and other components with a longer MTBF/,TBO, etc.

    Kel -‘ it has the raw power to chase down a F-35 if it sees one’

    Irrespective. Air combat is mostly at BVR these days, since the 1999’s in fact. The days of WVR engagements are mostly gone due to rapid tech advances, the bulk of engagements since the 1990’s were BVR. The recent engagement between the PAF and IAF with both sides deploying AEWs and the brief engagement period is indicative of how sir combat has evolved.

    A F-35 networked to a AEW will have much better SA than a legacy fighter, will be able to see it much earlier and also.rnhsge it at a highly advantageous position. Also, it’s LO features makes it harder to detect and to target with AAMs.

  19. Kel – ”It carries more missiles than the F-22 and F-35”

    Great but so what? In the greater scheme of things does it matter? Air combat today is all about SA [this hasn’t changed since WW1], networking/fusion, AI and other things.

    5th gen platforms by being low observable are hard to detect and engage. This is a major advantage. They can also engage silently/passively and beyond the ranges of the sensors of legacy platforms.Imagine a scenario when you’ve been fired upon but the first indication you get is your ESM telling you an incoming AAM has gone active in its terminal stage craving you literally seconds to react. All the while your radar shows no returns.

    Kel – ‘It remains a very potent fighter in most combat situations”

    An upgraded MiG-29’can be ‘potent’ as well in certain conditions. The fact remains that things are evolving and that 5th gen fighters is the way to go. The issue is not about how ”potent’ F-15s and other legacy fighters are but how air combat has evolved and The fact that 5th gen platforms enjoy major advantageous, which incidentally is why countries are investing so much in them.

    On the F-15 bear in mind that every nation – Israel,Saudi and the U.S. – which has scored kills with it employed it in positions where it has superior SA and were networked to AEWs.

  20. MoManEarth,

    From what I can gather there are some unresolved technical issues which are being ironed out. Locally assembling the third boat also was a major challenge as it has never been done before.

    Ultimately Scorpene is a much more contemporary design and the French are much more ahead in the sub business compared to the South Koreans.Indonesia has also been offered a Scorpene
    incorporating all the latest add on as offered for Brazil. Makes perfect sense why the TNI-AL would want to go for Scorpenrs next.

    Operating a,small number of different boats however will be a major challenge and strain – training//support wise. The Type 209s and Type 1400s share some level of commonality but none with Scorpene.

  21. Well I hope RMAF can someday acquire F-15 as well, so there could be 3 ASEAN countries that can train and cooperate together using shared platform to enhance our regional security. Yes it’s not a 5th gen fighter, but it will be quite a deterrence for PLAAN if they still operate gen 4-4.5 aboard their carriers.

  22. Trust a topic like this to get everyone’s attention, while no one spares a thought for the real problems at hand. I’ll sit this one out.

  23. if f15ex is an aircraft that is soon going to be obsolete and as everybody says many country should invest more on 5th gen fighter, it makes me wonder why the USAF are still placing order for the F15EX despite the fact that they have numerous F22s and F35s.

  24. Nanung – ‘ quite a deterrence for PLAAN if they still operate gen 4-4.5 aboard their carriers”

    – PLAN carriers if deployed will be against the U S, Japan and Australia, they will not be needed against us.
    – PLAN carriers will not operate in a vacuum but will be supported by other assets such as long range land based aviation, ISR assets and cruise missiles, ASMs and IRBMs.As such legacy carrier aircraft might not be severely disadvantaged.
    – The Chinese are not deterred by F-22s, F-35s and other assets operated by various countries, do you seriously think a mere handful of RMAF F-15s will deter China.
    – As has been made clear it’s not the the actual fighter which is the deciding factor but the way its employed and the needed enablers.

  25. Adam,

    The F-15 is not going to ‘be obsolete per see merely like all legacy fighters, severely disadvantaged against a 5th gen platform. Also the USAF has to continue to invest in F-15s as it can’t afford all the F-22s and F-35s it needs …

    AM – thought for the real problems at hand’.

    There are naturally several ‘real problems” at hand, especially in our context or in the context of the topic but this discussion is centered on the TNI-AU’s Rafales and misconceptions some might have on 5th gen platforms in relation to legacy platforms.

  26. The US won’t sell F-35 to Indonesia, they might do it to RMAF. Probably this is a political decision.
    Prabowo initially requested to buy 8 units of F-35’s.

  27. On a side note, USA will be very very very careful to whom they will be selling the F-35. The recent case of an F-35C that crashed off its carrier in SCS is getting a bigger interest on who can reach and bring it back with them from ocean depths, the US are desperately scrambling to do it before China or Russia does. Blowing it up won’t work as there still be plenty of useful materials left behind.

  28. Bruh, we should not even be dreaming about operating a 5th Gen fighter at least for a long time. I don’t think it’s economically viable for us looking at its high operating costs. I don’t mind if we stick with the high numbers of modern 4th & 4.5th Gen for now. F/A-18D/E/F & probably KAI TA/FA-50 and KF-21.

  29. To those proponents of 4th/4.5 gen planes, let me remind that F-35 can be had at the same pricing as current top end 4th/4.5 gens. Yes it does cost more to operate compared to legacy planes but that is an issue of OE, not DE, and we had always budget a lot more for OE than DE. In the long run it will even out as LM targets the F-35 servicing cost to drop down to nearly F-16 levels.

  30. @Azlan
    ” and highly networked a 5th gen platform will enjoy tremendous advantages over legacy platforms but legacy platforms will not be totally impotent”
    Tremendous is a strong word for now and years to come because both platforms are still growing and in some area sharing many same new techs and both platform have pro and con. For example in same condition, the F35 “see first shoot first” will not that effective against rafale spectre and F15 epawss. Once the F35 is detected the other will have the upper hand. That is a reason why the US or french still rely on their F15 and rafale. The F35 and F15 are meant to work together as deadly combo. As long as the concept not changed both will have new techs. So, the 4.5th gen platfom will not obselete in the years to come.

    @Imbalanche
    “I don’t mind if we stick with the high numbers of modern 4th & 4.5th Gen for now. F/A-18D/E/F & probably KAI TA/FA-50 and KF-21”

    Exactly….if the money is provided, RMAF should look to 4.5th platforms that still will be used in many years ahead.
    The 6th gen platform is already on the way. US NGAAD and UK tempest are on the table. If we have the money but wait buying for the sake of what generation then in 20 years we can have the same dilemma as today.

  31. @Azlan
    ” and highly networked a 5th gen platform will enjoy tremendous advantages over legacy platforms but legacy platforms will not be totally impotent”
    Tremendous is a strong word for now and years to come because both platforms are still growing and in some area sharing many same new techs and both platform have pro and con. For example in same condition, the F35 “see first shoot first” will not that effective against rafale spectre and F15 epawss. Once the F35 is detected the other will have the upper hand. That is a reason why the US or french still rely on their F15 and rafale. The F35 and F15 are meant to work together as deadly combo. As long as the concept not changed both will have new techs. So, the 4.5th gen platfom will not obselete in the years to come.

    @Imbalanche
    “I don’t mind if we stick with the high numbers of modern 4th & 4.5th Gen for now. F/A-18D/E/F & probably KAI TA/FA-50 and KF-21”

    Exactly….if the money is provided, RMAF should look to 4.5th platforms that still will be used in many years ahead.
    The 6th gen platform is already on the way. US NGAAD and UK tempest are on the table. If we have the money but wait buying for the sake of what generation then in 20 years we can have the same dilemma as today.

  32. Romeo – Tremendous is a strong word

    It isn’t if you understand the very definition, the context this word is used and the actual strengths of a 5th gen platform. Pls the fact that networking a fusing of ibfo/date makes the key difference.

    Romeo – not that effective against rafale spectre and F15 epawss

    That is your personal opinions but it didn’t square in with the facts and isn’t as simplistic as you make it.
    A 5th gen platform has inherent advantageous by being low observable and by being networked with ISR assets will have a tremendous advantage which incidentally is why they at being bought.

    Romeo – That is a reason why the US or french still rely on their F15 and rafale

    The French because they haven’t got a newer gen platform yet and the U S. becuse it isn’t getting F-35s in the numbers it needs …

    Romeo – So, the 4.5th gen platfom will not obselete in the years to come

    Who said otherwise? If you re-read what I wrote I said legacy fighters are not impotent against 5th fighters. 5th gen fighters however have inherent advantageous [much harder to detect and when detected much harder to achieve a lock on, etc] but are not a panacea and are not meant to be used in a vacuum but as part of a networked environment.

    This was not a ‘this’ versus ‘that’z argument which is pointless. There have been a lot of commonly held misconceptions about both legacy and 5th. gen platforms and a failure to understand that the very nature of air combat has significantly evolved.

  33. The politicians keep deferring new assets until the requirements snowball into such a huge amount. If they defence budget stays at 1% of GDP and our GDP can’t grow fast and big enough….we have enough budget for Opex to maintain all the old legacy stuff. Old legacy stuff are expensive to maintain and they take away a lot from the budget.

  34. Now with more issues for H20, the recent blatant covid SOP breech, there will be more ammo to shoot H20 down.

    basically if he didn’t sign the LCA/FLIT before GE15, he has done virtually nothing positive in his 2nd stint as MENHAN.

  35. The point of retaining 4.5 gen aircraft in tandem with 5 gen platforms is that they can act as an armament magazine of sorts. In a networked environment, a fleet operating in this combo can inflict a lot of damage to the adversary’s air and ground assets.

  36. Rahul – ”The point of retaining 4.5 gen aircraft in tandem with 5 gen”

    is because they still have utility and nobody [not even the USAF or USN] can afford 5th gen platforms in the numbers they desire…

    kenyalang – ”basically if he didn’t sign the LCA/FLIT before GE15”

    He has no authority… He can lobby, pester and make recommendations but ultimately what he can do is driven by the government he’s part of and its defence policy ….

  37. Just to be clear, the F35 was not the intended successor of the F15. That is supposed to be the F22, another twin engined jet.

    However, the F22 became too expensive and was cancelled earlier than expected, requiring the F15 to keep flying.

    The US can no longer produce new F22 which is why they don’t fly as often ad they used to. Also, contrary to belief, the F22’s internals are actually outdated and difficult to upgrade.

    The reason why Congress is pushing back on F35 acquisition is the failure of LMT to reduce sustainment costs.

    The USAF does not see the F35 as a proper replacement of the F15 because it is a single engine jet. Similarly, the USN still prefer twin engined jets because of where their jets tend to operate.ned jets because of where their jets tend to operate. Which is why both service have twin engined.

    Whether this is the reason countries like Japan, Singapore, Korea maintain both single and twin engined jets is unknown. Based on past acquisition, the RMAF seems to prefer twin engined jets, using single engine jets for LIFT and CAS purposes.

  38. Romeo, “Exactly….if the money is provided, RMAF should look to 4.5th platforms that still will be used in many years ahead.”

    It is foolish to spend precious money buying 4.5 gen fighters instead of 5th gen fighters in the future. To compare, 42x Rafale Indonesia buy is put at 8.1 billion dollars, with 1st Rafale to arrive in Indonesia only in 2026. Finland 64x F35A buy is for 9.4 billion dollars, 1st F35A to arrive in finland also in 2026.

    http://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/indonesia-orders-42-rafale-jets-french-defence-minister-says-2022-02-10/

    http://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/lockheed-f-35-jet-wins-finnish-fighter-competition-source-2021-12-10/

    logical thinking path
    – 2022-2030 spend money to buy LCA/FLIT
    -2030-2035 spend money to buy 5th gen fighters, not 4.5th gen.

    Azlan, “is because they still have utility and nobody [not even the USAF or USN] can afford 5th gen platforms in the numbers they desire”

    4.5gen fighters have utility when deployed alongside 5th gen fighters. For example F-15EX along with F-22.

    It is good to retain whatever 4.5th gen fighters that you have, but it is foolish when you are spending money buying them instead of 5th gen fighters. There are strategic considerations for USA to buy brand new F-15EX (propping up Boeing, cannot buy new F-22). Its teling that they dont want more brand new Super Hornets or F-16V.

    http://news.usni.org/2021/08/03/navy-questions-future-viability-of-super-hornets-recommends-against-new-buy

  39. gonggok – ”4.5gen fighters have utility when deployed alongside 5th gen fighters. For example F-15EX along with F-22.”

    Thank you for the example but it’s not as clear cut as that; a bit more nuanced…

    It all depends on operational circumstances; is that legacy platform operating against other legacy platforms; is it operating in airspace contested by a peer adversary who has 5th gen types and a comprehensive IADS and is it operating at a platform or a systems centric level?

    There are advantageous for a legacy platform when operating in mix packages with 5th gen platforms; it can mitigate inherent weaknesses but it’s a two way street in that at times the presence of a legacy platform may be a burden so to speak; to 5th gen types. As it stands legacy platforms will continue to form the bulk of fighter operated regionally in the foreseeable future; 5th gen types will enter service but in dribs and drabs.

    gonggok – ”but it is foolish when you are spending money buying them instead of 5th gen fighters.

    No it’s not ”foolish”. If one is short of platforms as it is; to maintain currently operational commitments and is not in a position or able to get a 5th gen platform then it’s certainly not ”foolish” to add on to its legacy platform fleet – depends entirely on the circumstances. Indonesia is getting Rafales because the type significantly adds to overall capabilities; because the TNI-AU is years away from getting the South Korean 4.5th gen type and because Rafales are more than adequate to meet any likely threat Indonesia is expected to face in the coming decade.

    In the case of the RMAF when it does reach a stage when a 5th gen platform is to be bought; it’ll not only have to be concerned about getting the cash for the platform but also the cash for the enablers in the form of a AEW, C3 and other things. As it stands the RMAF doesn’t even have a single LIFT and it’s getting a measly numbers of LCAS/LIFTs, not to mention the fact that it’s still largely a platform centric air arm; thus 5th gen types are still extremely very early days away ….. A lot can happen in the coming years.

  40. Azlan, “because the TNI-AU is years away from getting the South Korean 4.5th gen type”

    KF-21 Boramae is getting its first flight in a few months time. It is planned for mass production to start in 2024.
    http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/air-warfare/singapore-airshow-kf-21-captures-asia-pacific-and/

    TNI-AU will receive its first 6 Rafale only in 2026
    http://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/indonesia-to-receive-six-rafales-by-2026

    Also KF-21 is planned to be a 5th or 6th gen fighter. Only as a risk reduction plan that the Batch 1 has internal weapons bay sealed-off, and the external weapons carriage-only is what increases its RCS and putting it in 4.5th gen standards. Another advantage is the planned cost of KF-21 is put at 60 million dollars each, clearly much more cheaper than Rafale.
    http://www.aviacionline.com/2022/01/kai-bets-heavily-on-kf-21-boramae-whose-development-is-progressing-at-a-good-pace/

    In the specific circumstances of RMAF, we will not be in a position to buy a brand new MRCA probably till 2030. If we talk specifically in relation to the circumstances of RMAF, there should not be any talk of Rafales or such at that timeframe. So RMAF to buy brand new Rafale or such is a no go.

  41. @Gonggok
    “Finland 64x F35A buy is for 9.4 billion dollars,”
    US have policy on selling their military equipments. There are different price for Allies/NATO member, FMS, or commercial price, and also what equipments, tools, trainning, missile/bombs and spare part included on the contract. That price tag couldd not be given to anyone.

    “2030-2035 spend money to buy 5th gen fighters, not 4.5th gen”
    Well, there are some condition to meet before it is materialized
    1. Money is provided. At this time we still struggle to procure LCA/LIFT for 36 units.
    2. US is willing to sell F35. Before seal the deal to get Rafale, the indon also preffer the F35 not F16V or F15. The US forced indon to buy 4.5th gen first andif they still interested they can wait for 10 years to get the F35 (production line is full). Indon maybe Will have priority to get F35 than MY in the future. If we want F35 in 2030 than the jet probably Will be sent 2040, because the production line Will still full at that time. Is it worth buying F35? Maybe things will change, the 6th gen fighter already on the test run.

    “Its teling that they dont want more brand new Super Hornets or F-16V”
    The F35 is meant to replace F16.

  42. Romeo, ” Is it worth buying F35? Maybe things will change, the 6th gen fighter already on the test run ”

    So by your logic, in 2030-2035 it is not worth buying F-35, but worth to buy obsolete Rafale that is more expensive than the F-35?

    If we cannot and not allowed to buy F-35, getting the KF-21 Boramae is way better than Rafale or any legacy fighters. KF-21 is designed to be upgradable with low observable features, plus able to operate with loyal wingman CUAV. Plus it is priced at less than half of what the Rafale is selling for.

  43. @Romeo
    If we buy USA, it’d be thru FMS via either USN or USAF depending on the plane type. So iinm we ought to get at USN/USAF discounted pricing for the plane itself, but what will bump up the cost are the training, support, spares, simulator(?), pilot gear, accessories & ground equipment, weapons.

    Your rite that even if we are to commit for F-35 it would be a long wait, so all the better we skip 4.5gen and aim for F-35 or equivalent 5th gens the bare minimum requirement as we’d likely to make a commitment only in 2030-2040. By then, there hopefully there would be KFX, JFX, TFX, Tempest, NGF, and more coming into operation.

  44. gonggok – planned for mass production to start in 2024

    The key word is ”planned”, assuming it goes on schedule. Indonesia’s participation has also been a bit murky with the Koreans openly talking about delays in payment. No doubt, Indonesia will be getting it but the timing and numbers remain to be seen, as will.how long it will.actually take to reach IOC once actually delivered.

    gonggok – TNI-AU will receive its first 6 Rafale only in 2026

    Yes and chances are there won’t be any delays because it is a mature platform. They are also buying it because The won’t get the a 5th gen type in.numbers for the foreseeable future and because for the type of threats likely to be faced Rafale is deemed as adequate.

    gonggok – If we talk specifically in relation to the circumstances of RMAF

    So you keep saying birthrate is indeed no.plan as such and focus is on LCAs/LIFTs and other things as you very well know. Depends on the particular air arm and why I said your claim that it’s ”foolish” for anyone to get a legacy type is incorrect as it.Depends on particular circumstances.

  45. gonggok – ”getting the KF-21 Boramae is way better than Rafale or any legacy fighters.”

    Whether it’s in fact ..”way better” depends on how Rafale is operated, against what level of threat and on particular requirements. This is a fact irrespective of whatever personal assumptions one may have.

    gonggok – ”KF-21 is designed to be upgradable with low observable features, plus able to operate with loyal wingman CUAV”

    Everything is ”designed” to be progressively upgraded…. The near term issue with it is that it will take a while for it to have a wide user base and will take time to reach a level of maturity. It might takes years after first deliveries to the ROKAF.

    2030 is only 8 years away and by that time it really remains to be seen if F-35 is more obtainable or whether it’s prudent to go for newly developed alternative platform. It won’t happen due to funding but by right before we have a 5th gen type in service we’d already be a AEW operator; makes the transition to a systems centric air arm issue when a 5th gen type is eventually acquired. No point getting a 5th gen type if we’re forced to operate it a platform level. As it stands we don’t even have a single LIFT and by 2030 it remains to be seen how many we’ll have.

  46. @Gonggok
    “So by your logic, in 2030-2035 it is not worth buying F-35, but worth to buy obsolete Rafale that is more expensive than the F-35?:
    No, what i mean was even in 2030-2035 will give no guarantee that F35 is avaialble for RMAF.
    While many will change in that time, will RMAF still depend on MKM or hornet?….i doubt it the jets still flyable.
    What your suggestion then?
    TDM is in a better position than TUDM and TLDM. The problem will increase the more we wait to modernize. Again, money is the key…

    @joe
    “so all the better we skip 4.5gen and aim for F-35 or equivalent 5th gens”
    The longer waiting the bigger problem risimg.

  47. Romeo – ”2030-2035 will give no guarantee that F35 is avaialble for RMAF.

    Unless ties with the U.S. significantly change by that period and assuming we have the funds; should get it. By that period it would still be the most matured platform available; one which has also benefited from a wide user base.

    Romeo – ”.i doubt it the jets still flyable.”

    Flyable the MKMs will be but they will be somewhat aged and at a distinct disadvantage against newer types.

    Romeo – ”TDM is in a better position than TUDM and TLDM.”

    That’s a major problem. given that our land borders are mostly secure and that the main threats we face are in our maritime and air domains; the RMAF and RMN should be given priority but that’s a political decision.

  48. @Romeo
    If both the MKMs & Hornets go thru their intended SLEPs, they could easily fly for at least another decade. The MKMs are supposedly due 2 years ago but deferred by Mat Sabu. The Hornets supposed to go to Aus for the same last year but now just limited local LE due to pandemic restrictions, the major SLEP are still on the books tho. Both are pending SLEPs, that’s why it is very critical we get LCAs in together with exKuwaiti Hornets to maintain the high-lo mix when both our frontline fighters go into the shop.

    “The longer waiting the bigger problem risimg”
    In terms of geopolitics we aren’t at threat, we just need sufficient numbers to maintain patrols & QRA ready to intercept at any moment. That’s where the LCA-exKuwaiti Hornet combo can supplement & support our current Hornet-MKM combo. Availability is a question mark if we keep pushing back the SLEPs as I mentioned but once done they could serve at least another decade or more.

    Atm, we aren’t in need of expensive brand new 4.5gen planes but we need cheaper relatively in good shape 4th gen planes that could bolster our constant vigilance while saving up money for the big kahuna.

  49. Interesting and very pertinent comments in reference to getting new fighters, by someone with actual first hand experience. Warfare, whether on land, sea or air has significantly evolved. It’s not the actual fighter, ship or tank which enables a decisive advantage.

    ”focus on enablers of military capability, rather than shiny toys… Shiny toys are the tip of the spear, but a tip without the shaft is not very threatening… Building a robust system, including networking (sharing of data) will bring far more advantages in a combat sense, than the ‘nth’ degree of alleged performance from this platform v that platform or this fighter carrying ‘x’ number of missiles v another fighter with ‘y’ number of missiles…”

    ”Combat is not a linear series of incidents. Not 2 combatants inside a ring… Your rifle might outrange mine. It might fire projectiles accurately to a further distance and it might have a greater magazine capacity. But what does that matter if I can discern your location quicker and more precisely than you can mine and can share that information with my colleague who is in a position to use his ‘inferior’ rifle against you, without you being aware of it? The result is that the alleged advantages of your rifle are meaningless. I was able to win this combat and I didn’t even fire a shot”

  50. @”Azlan
    ‘Unless ties with the U.S. significantly change by that period and assuming we have the funds; should get it”

    “Flyable the MKMs will be.”

    It is not only about MY-US relationship. It is obvious that MY will continue a very good relationship and be friend with US in the coming decades.
    It is about when we can order the F35 and when they can delivere to RMAF. Time schedule is crucial.
    About MKM and hornet will or not still flyable Will remain to see, looking at what happened to the migs then what is already bad can change to worst.

    “Interesting and very pertinent comments in reference to getting..”
    Agreed…knife in a well trained person can be more lethal than rifle in untrained man.

    @Joe
    ‘In terms of geopolitics we aren’t at threat,”
    It depends on your definition about threat.
    The big guy is already inside our fence and makes us uncomfortable.

  51. Romeo -It is not only about MY-US relationship

    And I didn’t say it was… Whether we ever buy it will depend on whether relations have moved to a different level. We have good ties with Uncle Sam but there is still a preference to get big ticket items from elsewhere. For us to get something as politically significant as F-35s would mean the bilateral relationship has moved to a new level.

    Romeo – knife in a well trained person can be more lethal than rifle in untrained man

    If we use the knife anthology it’s about the ability of the knife wielding man to detect the rifleman without being detected and getting in an advantageous position to engage the rifleman before he can fire and take advantage of the range his rifle provides. It’s about enablers and the fact that just because the opponent has a rifle doesn’t necessarily mean he can use it to full advantage. Just like how an air arm which acquires a 5th gen type but not the key enablers will not be able to fully exploit its capabilities.

  52. Sg has raises defend bajet for 2022…S$16.4 billion in 2022 from S$15.4 billion in 2021. Or about US $12.2 billion in 2022 from US $11.4 billion in 2021.

  53. This 13/14th was the 80th anniversary of the 1st Malay Regiment’s defence of Pasir Panjang [now called Kent Ridge]. Till today it remains little known but was a vital part of the Malaya/Singapore campaign, occurring just 2 days before the collapse.

  54. “It depends on your definition about threat.”
    Are we in an escalated scenario whereby big guy will use his 5th gen plane as a first option to rattle us? No. 5th gen users are very careful not to show their hand too often in case their presence on radar are identified, recorded and tracked the next time they pop up, in our case big guy would deploy planes that he wants us to know is around ie 4th gens or transporters in the last incident.

    For such scenarios, LCA, legacy Hornets & MKMs are more than adept at ‘welcoming’ them. Again, big guy do not consider us a threat moreso when we don’t have 5th gen of our own, so he unless he means it, he won’t be showing us his premier fighting force just yet. The scenario will change if he intends to rattle a US carrier group tho.

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