Still in Purgatory…LCS Part 2

The LCS major equipment detailed by RMN in 2016. RMN graphic

SHAH ALAM: Defence Minister DSU Mohamad Hasan had more to say in Parliament yesterday about the LCS apart from what was reported earlier. As Parliament has yet to publish its official Hansard (statement) Malaysian Defence had to rely on what was reported by Air Times again.

The report said the Cabinet will have to give its approval for the SAM system before it is procured. Mohamad also raised the possibility that another type of SAM could be procured instead the MBDA VL MICA.

Menteri Pertahanan, Datuk Seri Mohamad Hasan hari ini menyatakan misil pertahanan udara (Surface-to-air Missile, SAM) untuk Kapal Tempur Pesisir (LCS) akan memerlukan kelulusan oleh pihak Jemaah Menteri.
“Bagi perolehan SAM, belum ada dalam kontrak lagi,” katanya semasa menjawab soalan di Dewan Rakyat, hari ini.
Beliau menambah, perolehan tersebut akan memerlukan kelulusan kabinet.
“Kita akan buat dan kita akan memerlukan kelulusan kabinet untuk memperolehi dari OEM mana dan jenis,” katanya.
Beliau menambah, perolehan sistem persenjataan lain seperti misil anti permukaan sudah pun dilaksanakan.
“Kita akan lakukan apabila dapat mengenal pasti sistem yang mana yang baik yang terbaik
yang boleh diletakkan di atas LCS tersebut,” ujar beliau.

This is of course, nonsense, as BNS has already procured the MICA launchers, as Malaysian Defence has posted on various occasions. The missiles has not been bought as the government has dithered about it since 2011. (Lethal weapons must be bought by the government as in the case for the NSM anti ship missiles). For the sake of argument – I am not infallible – even if BNS has not bought the MICA launchers (it has) then the shipyard would have to spend more money to integrate the new SAM system into the LCS (apart from paying for the missiles and launchers).

From the PAC report, integrating new systems on board the LCS – SSM, IPMS and decoy – were the reasons that the cost of the whole project had gone up beyond the RM9 billion price ceiling. Also from the PAC report, we also know that a former RMN chief fought long and hard to get another SAM system (ESSM) but in the end, BNS decision to buy the MICA was upheld by the then Prime Minister.

Apart from the cost issue, if BNS has not bought the MICA launchers, the shipyard must also find a way to seal part of the hull which were cut to accommodate the VLS launchers. And recut it if the government buy another SAM system. The Gowind 2500 -of which the LCS is derived from – was from the start designed with the VL MICA in mind. And we have not talked about the torpedoes for the LCS.

So, the cheapest option for the government is to allow BNS to install the MICA launchers and not buy the missiles, which is the current situation, really. This means we are following the Fitted-For-but-Not Equipped With – concept as with the Kedah class. Which means that the LCS is not fit for purpose in the first place.

— Malaysian Defence

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44 Comments

  1. Changing the SAM is kinda expected. It one of the reasons I can think off that lead to Mat Sabu issuing a stop order and H20 meeting with the French gov for an ‘agreement’.

    The high cost of weapons integration is probably why Najib didn’t agreed to RMN request before and why the politicians class are still dragging their feet around till today.

    Personally if the RMN fought tooth & nail long & hard for something then it’s probably important. While ESSM may not be cheaper or more capable then a MICA NG. It value is in it networking, interoperability & interchangeability as well as access to US/OZ stockpiling. probably.

  2. @Taib
    Correction. The current Govt is Hell, we are in Purgatory.

    “Aster is more expensive than then MICA”
    Haven’t stop the Government before from selecting a more expensive option, just because it is “different”. Tho in all probability, the FFBNW option leaving the launchers empty is most likely what will happen, what with the incoming global recession and the apathetic attitudes of rakyat & politicians whom would rather care about inflation and high Cost of Living such that EPF withdrawals became a hot topic.

  3. Zaft – ” I can think off that lead to Mat Sabu issuing a stop order”

    Incorrect. It was largely due to the EU decision on palm oil.

    Zaft – “The high cost of weapons integration is probably why Najib didn’t agreed to RMN request”

    Incorrect. It was due to politics of the day and other reasons. Not because of integration issues. ESSM was also the prefered choice for the Lekiu Batch 2s. I’ll give you hints; ESSM can only be bought via FMS and the French applied pressure.

    Zaft – “It value is in it networking, interoperability & interchangeability as well as access to US/OZ stockpiling”

    Something you’ve actually got right but not the “networking” part which is also achievable with Mica.

  4. “integrating new systems on board the LCS – SSM, IPMS and decoy – were the reasons that the cost of the whole project had gone up beyond the RM9 billion price ceiling.”
    Integrating new systems is a given so cost of integration should have been factored into the overall project cost, so once again it is clear the decisionmakers back then had hid the true cost of the whole thing and would have likely intended to issue supplementary budgets to cover the shortfall money. So comes back to my assertion years ago that the real cost of this build could not realistically be RM 9Billion from the get go.

  5. I only include possible technical & monetary issues rather than politics as it is rather unquantifiable & thus put it in the realm of speculation while different people would see/remembered/interpreting things differently.

    For example is stopping LCS as a response to palm oil issue is beneficial to us as a country or just an unpopular gov trying to distract public attention away externally for their own benefit?

    On a personal view. As much as I didn’t like the current DPM, I had to admit that At the time of LCS approval political speaking we ain’t likely gonna buy anything American nor neither we nor the American are looking to expand existing relationships. So I doubt the French even need to apply pressure.

    Even OZ at that time were diversifying away from US with shortfin baraccuda,NH90 & tiger. So the decision to get gowind back then wasn’t wrong nor the subsequent geopolitical change & thus the need to change its effectors are wrong either.

  6. The Americans were always looking to expand their relationships with other countries. No, we were not trying to distance ourselves when the LCS was in the early stage. It was BNS decision to buy the Gowind design that resulted with most of the systems selected from France. Nothing political about it, it was just about money.

  7. As I had posted repeatedly no one really knew the cost of the whole project when they started it. RM9 billion was the limit that the Finance Ministry officials was prepared to pay for it. Note it’s the ceiling price, they were not supposed to go above it.

  8. No one in public would know the whole REAL cost, yes.
    But the decision makers are either dumb enough to not know or find out, or refuse to know, or knew but chose not to reveal. Integration cost is real just as lifecycle maintenance costing, but when the Govt chose to be “creative” and leave out certain costs to be hidden, you darn well surely can see they “knew something”. Or its these monies allocated that went into a certain Dee Pee Emm pocket.

  9. Zaft – “I only include possible technical & monetary issues rather than politics as it is rather unquantifiable”

    You include whatever you want but try to get the facts right rather than insist on things clearly/plainly untrue. BTW politics and “technical & monetary” issues go hand in hand and is certainly not “rather unquantifiable” as you claim.

    Zaft – “thus put it in the realm of speculation”

    I don’t deal in speculation. If I don’t know or am uncertain I’ll say so but if I say something I damn well make sure that it’s accurate. If anything a lot of things you’ve said here and elsewhere is speculative and driven by personal but incorrect impressions.

    Zaft – “For example is stopping LCS as a response to palm oil issue is beneficial”

    In response to something inaccurate you claimed; I pointed out that the EU decision played a big part with regards to Mica – common knowledge. Your claim that “The high cost of weapons integration is probably why Najib didn’t agreed to RMN request” is pure utter nonsense …

    If you know anything about Mahathir you’d know that delaying Mica in response was typical of him. You old enough to remember the “Buy British Last” campaign? You aware of the politics at play behind a lot of what we’ve bought it is that “rather
    unquantifiable” too?

    Zaft – “So I doubt the French even need to apply pressure”

    You can “doubt” till Armageddon comes but I know for a fact that they did apply pressure and even my 5 year old nephew knows the French can be very uncooperative with regards to non French stuff going on French ships, planes, etc.

    Zaft – “So the decision to get gowind back”

    Thanks for the revelation but the way we went about it was highly flawed, like the whole system and as you know Gowind wasn’t the RMN’s main choice.

    Zaft – “subsequent geopolitical change”

    Which exists in your mind no doubt but not in reality. In reality there has been no “geopolitical change”.

  10. zaft – ” political speaking we ain’t likely gonna buy anything American ”

    Make the effort to understand that one reason we don’t buy American is because certain things can only be sourced via FMS and under FMS there is no place for agents….

    zaft – ”Even OZ at that time were diversifying away from US with shortfin baraccuda,NH90 & tiger.”

    It never ceases to amaze me how you come up with some of the things you do; forming the conclusions you do and stating them confidently as if they were true. Australia was not ”diversifying” as you put it but merely sourcing stuff which it needed but for various reasons could not or did not want to source from Uncle Sam.

  11. “only be sourced via FMS and under FMS there is no place for agents”
    And of the few rare chances we did go with FMS, we decided to cancel it. It makes Uncle Sam just as wary to offer us anything.

  12. At this point the way Indonesia did it by using FFBNW scheme for their domestic build frigate looks better. Why bother buying the weapons if you can’t complete the hull, right? That way it will minimize the cost if something goes wrong with the project.

  13. And they’ve had their major share of problems [technical issues; cost overuns, etc] with local production; as well as issues encountered with the Tigers, Seasprites, Newport conversions; etc but at least they are better at learning from their mistakes; there are corrective mechanisms in place; the mainstream media and opposition does a better job questioning and srutinising authority and they have a holistic and realistic assessment of their defence needs.

  14. Of course but it must be noted that even Indonesia had its first or two Sigma frigates build overseas before the domestic ship building started

  15. ‘what with the incoming global recession and the apathetic attitudes of rakyat & politicians whom would rather care about inflation and high Cost of Living such that EPF withdrawals became a hot topic.'(joe)
    It’s rightly so because the Rakyat has not seen the benefits of buying weapons. They see this…that DS Mat Sabu preaching he’s got the egg problem covered, by importing eggs just bigger than pigeon eggs with very porous shells!
    What can the Rakyat learn from one defence debacle after another? That the politicians of all shades use defence buys to pad their nest eggs. That many generals/ ex-generals are just as unscrupulous. That’s a lot of RM down the drain.

  16. ” It makes Uncle Sam just as wary to offer us anything.”

    It doesn’t make Uncle Sam ”wary” because it’s routine to offer us stuff and the DA’s office at the embassy will continue to do so as it has been doing for decades now. They have nothing to lose and all to gain by continuing to offer us stuff.

    Also, if you’re referring to the M109s was it a direct commercial sale or a FMS one?

    Taib -”It’s rightly so because the Rakyat has not seen the benefits of buying weapons.”

    Actually ”the Rakyat has not seen the benefits” of sustained and adequate investments to the MAF for a host of reasons I’ve alluded to. Not helping matters is that the political leadership also has an indifferent attitude.

  17. Azlan “Australia was not ”diversifying” as you put it but merely sourcing stuff which it needed but for various reasons could not or did not want to source from Uncle Sam.”

    The difference between the term diversifying & did not want to source is?

    Azlan “Make the effort to understand that one reason we don’t buy American is because certain things can only be sourced via FMS and under FMS there is no place for agents….”

    Rarely things happened for one and only one reason only. We do not participate in FMS not just because there’s no place for agent commission. There’s internals politics, geopolitical & economics reason as well.

    Azlan “I don’t deal in speculation. If I don’t know or am uncertain I’ll say so but if I say something I damn well make sure that it’s accurate”

    As I said, politics is not quantifiable & thus what you believed is true is no more than your own believe & perspective & neither you or anyone can prove it otherwise. So it rather pointless to say one perspective is wrong & only mine & mine perspective alone is right.

    Azlan “In response to something inaccurate you claimed; I pointed out that the EU decision played a big part with regards to Mica – common knowledge”

    The mica is already delayed even before DrM become PM.

    Azlan “Which exists in your mind no doubt but not in reality.

    Funny enough, the same could be applied to everything you claim as true.

    Azlan “In reality there has been no “geopolitical change”

    So you take is OZ cancelled the shortfin baraccuda, retired their nh90 & tiger wasting ten of billions for no obvious reasons?

  18. Marhalim “Oz like us had the illusions that they could build up their own local industry”

    It unfortunate but most countries even one under existential threats would succumbed under the internal political & economics pressure to localise production. As buying things utilizing foreign currencies and then gain no multiplier effect, no contribution to socioeconomic contribution is extremely unattractive proposition.

    We can seen it in our own history that even if the arms forces give them a list of bare minimum the gov would either buy less, buy something below the minimum requirements or not just buy anything at all.

    The thing we should ask is not should we or shouldn’t we localized but rather what level of localisation. Is it CKD, licensing production of existing IP or build a new design on existing IP. On the micro level which parts should be locally produced & which should be imported.

  19. zaft – ”The difference between the term diversifying & did not want to source is?”

    You asking because you really want to know; you have no idea or you desire brownie points? Look it up.

    zaft – ”The mica is already delayed even before DrM become PM.”

    Argue all you want but the decision to delay Mica was typical of Mahathir and occurred when Sabu was defence Minister. Are you old enough to remember the Buy British Last Campaign and other actions which occurred? Or you just arguing for the sake of it? Who instructed Sabu and MINDEF to cease all negotiations on MICA [wasn’t Santa Claus] and why [wasn’t because Bud Spencer never won an Oscar].

    zaft – ”So it rather pointless to say one perspective is wrong & only mine & mine perspective alone is right.”

    Spin it all you want but again and ”pointless’ to you only; I don’t deal in speculation. I have no idea how long you’ve been here or how long you’ve been observing the local defence scene but a lot of what I write is based on what I know when I was involved – in a very very minor and inconsequential way – in the scene and based on interactions with those in the know. I never insisted that ”only mine & mine perspective alone is right” just that I’m amazed at some of the things you come up with which are flatly untrue and which you’d know if you bothered to do some research before hastily hitting the keyboard/keypad.

    Like I said; I don’t speculate and if I don’t know or am unsure I will say so… I’m also not in the habit of making preposterous things without bothering to at least try to get it right.

    zaft – ”So you take is OZ cancelled the shortfin baraccuda, retired their nh90 & tiger wasting ten of billions for no obvious reasons?”

    Shoot the right calibre if you’re interested in meaningful debate.

    zaft – ”Funny enough, the same could be applied to everything you claim as true.”

    A lot of what I say is backed by sources and are facts which are widely known to most who have long observed the defence scene. So no… Speak for yourself and look at various things you said with a straight face which were flatly untrue…

    Name me one thing I said which is untrue or inaccurate and back it up with facts instead of personal preferences and shaping things to your opinion as you have a penchant for.

    zaft – ”We do not participate in FMS not just because there’s no place for agent commission. ”

    That is one of the main reasons. Instead of insisting on things you know little of; make the effort – if you’re able to – to ask around. None of us are experts but it behooves us to try and get things right.

  20. @Zaft
    “Funny enough, the same could be applied to everything you claim as true.”
    So I wasn’t the only one that thought so too.

    “The mica is already delayed even before DrM become PM.”
    Likely cuz they knew the project budget money wasn’t sufficient to buy them. It will come later and it wouldn’t appear in the overall RM 9Bil budget so ostensibly it won’t appear as if the LCS project was over the budget limit. In a way its similar to the current trend of buying stuff without long term maintenance factored in a buy, as money for that would appear somewhere else hence it would look like the buy was within budget.

  21. ”So I wasn’t the only one that thought so too.”

    Snide comments are telling. A lot of what I say is common knowledge or would be apparent if one knows where to ask or to look. Also there is a core difference between stating a fact and stating an opinion based on what one believes is a fact. If anything I’ve said is fundamentally wrong by all means point it out and base it on facts.

    BTW me pointing out that the change in army leadership and the decision to get the F/A-50 had nothing to do with the change in government and that having the ability to deploy an asset from east to west with minimal backup has actual utility [which you kept claiming otherwise] are facts. Just like how having support assets which have visible features doesn’t make them vulnerable to return fire is not an big issue given that they aren’t intended to be placed where they can come under direct fire [not as if they were painted orange]. ”funny”.. Least but not last we could not ‘insist’ on anything when sending aid to Syria for reasons I alluded to. We did what we could by sending aid and we could not do more.

    Unlike others I’m not in the business of insisting things which aren’t true are true. If I don’t know or am unsure I’ll say so…

    ”Likely cuz they knew the project budget money wasn’t sufficient to buy them.”

    It wasn’t a priority during that period compared to other things but instructions to delay it only came as a result of the EU palm oil decision. As such Zaft’s claim that Mahathir was not instrumental in the delay or that palm oil had nothing to do with or that ”project budget money wasn’t sufficient to buy them” are not accurate. It was always intended to buy MICA [and other things at a much later date] and there were reasons why NSM was bought early.

    ”In a way its similar to the current trend of buying stuff without long term maintenance factored in a buy,”

    ”In a way” it is ”similar” but lots of things are. In actuality buying something without also signing a sustainment/training package [for whatever reason] and deciding that a piece of kit can come later because of priority in the larger scheme of things are two different things. If actual examples are needed; ask…

  22. “All of the GFE procurement are outside the LCS budget”
    So the key point is, is the project really viable at RM 9Bil or when addon the missiles & munitions and such to make a complete ship its actually far more than what they had been telling us?

  23. Yes I was told the bean counters at Finance Ministry calculated that the ceiling price was enough for five ships only back in 2014 and that without the GFE. They were persuaded to follow the party line

  24. “Snide comments are telling.”
    Sometimes you might not like the truth but hey that’s life. Live with it and improve yourself as much as you keep saying that to others.

    “We did what we could by sending aid and we could not do more.”
    The international community would disagree with you. Nothing worse than sending aid to those NOT in need.

    “ask…”
    Okay, so where is the prove for instructions to delay it only came as a result of the EU palm oil decision”? My opinion, the decision was simply because the project budget wasn’t enough simples as that, whatmore to cover the munitions, so it has to be bought via a supplementary budget, one that would not trigger the beancounters or the Opposition then. This is something that I have stuck to years ago, kept repeating here and the evidences point to it.

  25. “Sometimes you might not like the truth but hey that’s life”

    An apt way to describe yourself.

    “Live with it and improve yourself as much as you keep saying that to others”.

    Coming from the likes of you.. As for improving myself, get it straight. I be never asked that of anyone, merely they try to check their facts before insisting on things which aren’t true and which they would have known if they had bothered to ask or check.

    “Nothing worse than sending aid to those NOT in need”

    Cherry picking now are we? Any indication that aid was indeed sent to those NOT in need? Were we the onky ones who sent aid to Syria?

    “My opinion, the decision was simply because the project budget wasn’t enough simples as that”

    You have a habit of insisting in things which you think are true. Again, the intention was always to get Mica at a later date. Following the EU decision instructions came to postpone all talks on Mica as a retaliatory move to show our displeasure. Note statements made that we might buy Chinese jets and other things rather than European – it was a political reaction. Such a move was also typical for Mahsthir who has undertaken similar measures in the past. In short, spin it all you want but it was no open secret that the decision to delay Mica was driven by the EU decision.

  26. “An apt way to describe yourself.”
    When 2 persons here (and others prior) are pointing to you and only you point to me….

    “You have a habit of insisting in things which you think are true.”
    An apt way to describe yourself?

    “Any indication that aid was indeed sent to those NOT in need?”
    Err… you said it yourself actually:
    “many of those hit will also be in areas controlled by various rebel groups and getting aid where it’s needed can be dicey.”
    “If you were a Baathist official in a small town and were given a quantity of supplies for distribution; would priority be co enthic Alawites who remained loyal to the regime or to Sunnis who have been trying to topple the regime? There’s also nothing to say that the rebels are willing to cooperate.”
    “We simply can’t do anything else.”

    “Again, the intention was always to get Mica at a later date.”
    Simply because we didn’t have the money in the original budget. Not because of EU or palm oil. If such issues were a dealbreaker, we wouldn’t have ordered French ships in the first place. Mind you all these took place PRIOR to Mahathir’s PH. It was a monetary issue not a political one unless you can prove otherwise. Argue all you want.

  27. “2 persons here (and others prior) are pointing to you and only you point”

    Two persons who have made certain outrageous, preposterous and luducrous statements and claims which are on public record? Look at some of the statements you’ve made and note that others beside myself have corrected you, including when you made gradually claim that the F/A-50 and new army chief was the result of a new government.

    Spare me the comic relief; if I wanted humour I know where to look.

    “apt way to describe yourself”

    Come up with your own quotes rather then imitate like a circus seal.

    By asking those in the know and by doing some objective research? Hardly. Since you missed it; I’m not in the habit of making claims I don’t know are true. If I don’t know or am unsure I’ll say so but if I say something imI’ll try my best to be accurate. .

    “Err… you said it yourself actually”

    “Err” you want to make a mountain of of nothing like you normally do and score brownie points; I’ll oblige. “Err”.

    We did what we could and we asked and got assurances from the government that aid would be channeled where needed. Your claim that the ambassador should be present to oversee distribution is nonsensical as it’s a large area and there are security concerns. You also fail to mention that some of the aid was distributed via non partisan NGOs.

    “Mind you all these took place PRIOR to Mahathir’s PH”.

    Which I acknowledged but as pointed out he was the one who issued instructions on delays in negotiations and who also said that we might not buy European as a retaliatory measure; yet you would go off tangent and saying certain things were not “dealbreakers”‘.

    Also, when we bought French ships nobody predicted that years later the EU would come up with what they did so what are you on about and Mahathir’s reaction typical; like the Buy British Last campaign and other things he did which you’re aware of since you’re so apparently well informed.

    For various reasons [as pointed out] it was always planned to get Mica and various other things at a later date. All this is widely known to in the industry and defence press. Sure the cash wasn’t there but Mica was always supposed to have been bought later along with other things.

    “Argue all you want”

    I only argue on things I know and I don’t insist on things I don’t know because unlike you I don’t have a habit of insisting certain things are true just be cause I think so or won’t admit I was wrong and backtrack.

    I actually ask around from those I can and picked up a lot of things when I was in the circuit so to speak in a very minor and inconsequential way

  28. Had the LCS program stayed on track (i.e. all 6 ships by 2023), the missiles would have been bought before 2018. That the ships was not completed at all means no missiles. Therefore if the plan was always to buy later, then the purchase would have been delayed because the LCS was delayed. Nothing to do with the palm oil. If there was no EU palm oil issue in 2018, the missiles would still be delayed, because the LCS is delayed.

  29. Palm oil issue came in 2018 when PH Government came in as that point its prices became so low while at the same time EU were threatening to stop the import to the block. Also at that point all money for LCS had been tapped out so it was a really an easy decision to say that we will not buying MICA although at that point the launchers had already been bought. Then came Covid and palm oil prices goes to the roof and there was no more fear of an import block from EU. But still there is no more money for MICA due to the LCS situation. We are at another impasse really.

  30. kel – ”Nothing to do with the palm oil. If there was no EU palm oil issue in 2018”

    Let’s get this straight without any further obfuscation.

    Even if there was no palm oil issue in 2018 we would not have bought Mica because of cash constraints and because it was planned to get Mica at a later date anyway; along with the torps and other things. Come 2018 however and the palm oil issue; Mahathir used it as leverage to pressure the French to in turn pressure the EU. Thus the claim by an enlightened individual that ”all these took place PRIOR to Mahathir’s PH” is utter nonsense.

    You will also note that Mahathir has used such tactics before [the Buy British Last Campaign for one] and himself said that we might buy Chinese instead of European jets due to the EU decision. Note also that non committal discussions that were ongoing with a number of companies from EU countries on the possible purchase of various things were also put on hold due to the EU palm oil decision.

  31. Once again, paraphrasing to make yhe statement out of context. It is not “Nothing to do with the palm oil. If there was no EU palm oil issue in 2018”, the statement reads. “Nothing to do with the palm oil. If there was no EU palm oil issue in 2018, the missiles would still be delayed, because the LCS is delayed.”

  32. kel- ”Once again, paraphrasing to make yhe statement out of context”

    ”Once again” the same tune when things don’t go your way. Any other tune?

    kel – ”If there was no EU palm oil issue in 2018, the missiles would still be delayed, because the LCS is delayed.”

    Still obfuscating or unable to understand when I had put it in simple plain English?
    I’ll try this –
    – Mica would still have been delayed even if there was no palm oil issue and it was always intended to be bought ta later date.
    – Following the palm oil decision however; Mahathir in effect put a freeze on all discussion/plans relating to the procurement of Mica.
    – During the same period we also put a freeze on all other discussion and immediate plans to source anything from EU countries.
    – As has been mentioned several times it was not the first time Mahathir resorted to such a measure in order to gain a political objective.
    – Nobody is saying that Mica would have been bought during the said period if there was no palm oil decision – shoot the right calibre in order to debate/discuss an issue…

    BTW I know what I wrote; pedantic reminders aren’t necessary but ta anyway.

  33. When 3 of us, 4 when include Marhalim’s latest comment, are singing the same tune vs yours, who is the one being a circus seal?

    Again, and as others have said the same, if you have proof to that which supported your claim, do share. If this palm oil matter was mentioned in the LCS PAC report or Parliament Hansard it would allay all doubts as to your veracity.

    “shoot the right calibre in order to debate/discuss an issue…”
    Indeed.

  34. Mahathir is no longer around and yet as revealed by tokmat recently the gov is still considering a change to the SAM while at the same time the gov plan to order the atr72 MPA & had already received the MUH.

    So while Mahathir + palm oil is a factor it’s not a major factor for the previous delay & potential cancellation of the MICA.

  35. zaft – ”t recently the gov is still considering a change to the SAM while at the same time the gov plan to order the atr72 MPA & had already received the MUH.”

    And in your mind this is germane to the topic at hand?

    zaft – ”it’s not a major factor for the previous delay & potential cancellation of the MICA.”

    Again [in simple language as I possibly can]; like other things he used before; the issue of palm oil was used by him to apply pressure on the French and he publicly stated that arms procurement from the EU would be impacted if they maintained the palm oil ban. The issue of Mahathir issuing a stop order for Mica was also widely know with defence circles during the said period.

  36. ”When 3 of us, 4 when”

    You back in high school – numbers indicate veracity?

    ” Marhalim’s latest comment”

    Read carefully what he said and not what you hoped he said because you think it bolsters your narrative.

    ”as others have said the same, if you have proof to that which supported your claim, do share.”

    Do you have proof to indicate otherwise? Do ”share”. I never claimed I had proof; merely I knew what I stated from conversations with people in the know and that during that period it was no open secret. I also said that you were wrong to claim that the palm oil issue became an issue prior to the 2018 GE; as Marhalim [since you mentioned him] also pointed out.

    ”who is the one being a circus seal?”

    I get it you have this insatiable need to score points, backtrack and insist but look at your comments; on public record.

    ”If this palm oil matter was mentioned in the LCS PAC report or Parliament Hansard”

    Cherry picking now are we? Has a lot of nonsense you’ve mentioned and insisted were true been backed up by any facts or even ”mentioned in a mentioned in a report or Parliament Hansard”? any proof [apart from what you have in your minds] you can ”share” that the F/A-50 only became the leading contender after a new government came to power? That it was only a new government which led to a change in army leadership? I can go on.

    ”Indeed.”

    Coming from you?

  37. One of the suggestion from PAC was to appoint Naval Group as the main contractor to build the LCS. No BHIC, no BNS & no CED/CAD. If only Ismail Sabri administration chose this way i am sure by the end of 2023 the first unit will be completed & 2nd unit will start construction. After LCS 1&2 completed, we pay them. Later appoint BNS back to complete unit 3,4 & 5.
    Its a win-win situation. I think this is the best way.

    Just my 2cents

  38. @Zaft
    PM7 knows he could play the Mica card as it wasn’t bought yet, and he knew he could delay that as long as the LCS was delayed. PM9 had to continue the project so they couldn’t delay the SAM decision any much longer. Already baked in the Mica launchers into the LCS VLS meant it is a nobrainer decision which we will go for (unless the Sylver launchers could be reconfigured to fire others ie Asters/ESSM).

  39. “An apt way to describe yourself.”
    When 2 persons here (and others prior) are pointing to you and only you point to me….

    “You have a habit of insisting in things which you think are true.”
    An apt way to describe yourself?

    “Any indication that aid was indeed sent to those NOT in need?”
    Err… you said it yourself actually:
    “many of those hit will also be in areas controlled by various rebel groups and getting aid where it’s needed can be dicey.”
    “If you were a Baathist official in a small town and were given a quantity of supplies for distribution; would priority be co enthic Alawites who remained loyal to the regime or to Sunnis who have been trying to topple the regime? There’s also nothing to say that the rebels are willing to cooperate.”
    “We simply can’t do anything else.”

    “Again, the intention was always to get Mica at a later date.”
    Simply because we didn’t have the money in the original budget. Not because of EU or palm oil. If such issues were a dealbreaker, we wouldn’t have ordered French ships in the first place. Mind you all these took place PRIOR to Mahathir’s PH. It was a monetary issue not a political one unless you can prove otherwise. Argue all you want.

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