SHAH ALAM: During an interview with Selamat Pagi Malaysia on April 23, RMN chief Admiral Zulhelmy Ithnain revealed the procurement plan for service in RMK13. A recording of the interview was published on RMN Facebook page. According to the admiral among the items to be procured for the five-year period is the multi-role support ship (MRSS); LMS Batch 3; mid-life upgrade of the Scorpene submarines; and – Insya Allah or God willing – anti-submarine helicopters.
The interview was conducted ahead of the RMN 91st anniversary on April 27. Apart from the future procurement plans, Zulhelmy also spoke about the various open days across the RMN bases during the first week of May as part of the anniversary celebration.
Based on what the admiral said it appears that MRSS, LMS Batch 3 and submarines upgrade will be funded while the ASW helicopters procurement will depend on whether the government has money or not.
That said in the past, not all things that were put in the RMK pot were funded, as shown by the long waiting period for the MRSS (since 1997); the ASW helicopters (2000s) and other things for the other services as well (MRCA comes to mind). As usual there is a disconnect between what the services wants and needs with what the politicians wants and needs.
Isnt it from the horses mouth good enough then especially when there is plans to build a maritime center of excellence in Bagan Datuk? Well the problem is I have been hearing from various sources recently that the MRSS will not be funded in RMK13. Hence the title of this post.
Like the HMLTV post, I am letting this be published knowing that the ministry and RMN chief had stated that the MRSS will be funded in RMK13.
As the song says: what-ever will be, will be. I am always happy to be wrong when it comes to funding dysfunction and delays.
— Malaysian Defence
LMS Batch 3 should be the STM Turkiye Corvette batch 2 of 3 more ships, to have a total of 6 STM Turkiye corvette by 2030. We should not try to add another different type of similarly performing ships in TLDM fleet. As for giving LUNAS the contract for LMS Batch 3, i dont think that would be a good idea, as LUNAS need to concentrate to complete the GOWINDs by 2030. The 5th GOWIND is planned to be completed by early 2029. What we can do to give LUNAS extra job is to give the contract to complete the 6th GOWIND by 2030.
Mid-life upgrade aka refit no. 2 of the Scorpenes will be paid for under CAPEX or OPEX? Hopefully the existing Lead-Acid batteries could be replaced by Li-ion batteries, even if without extended hull section to fit extra batteries. Li-ion batteries will extend the next refit interval to be longer than the current 7-8 years interval.
As for ASW helicopters, one of the former TLDM helicopter COs are proposing the Bell 412 ASW as per the Morrocan navy fitout. I feel that the platform itself is too long in the tooth, although it is one of a few helicopters types that can be installed with a cabin winch for the dipping sonar. I would personally prefer getting used SH-60J from JMSDF for free/cheaply.
MRSS – i think i have made my opinion clear. I dont think this should be a priority capability for TLDM, and it can be covered by getting used JHSV/EPF and RORO.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GmZDvvhaUAAjR7M?format=jpg&name=4096×4096
Is RMN happy with KD Indera Sakti? Do they think KD Indera Sakti fulfilled its designated role? If yes maybe MRSS should be roughly similar in size to KD Indera Sakti
Yes they are happy with the Indera Sakti. But it must be said that the design is now almost 50 years old. To say if they are happy with it, they should have the MRSS in the same size, it’s a bit too much. The MRSS design should be the one that they can support.
I believed it will be under CAPEX as that is why the admiral said it will be under RMK13.
Personally I always assume they only gonna ordered and pay at least a deposit on the MRSS this RMK but not actually getting the ship and thus the bulk of the payment this RMK.
It would be very hard to pay for that MRSS and the next batch of ADA this RMK since they still need to pay for the existing gowind and the first batch of ADA this RMK. No?
From the SPM interview
Some of the highlights
– “If you desire peace prepare for war” Jika inginkan kedamaian, kita perlu bersedia untuk berperang. Ini ialah tugas teras TLDM.
– cabaran terbesar, menguruskan armada dimamah keusangan. permodenan aset dibawah 15 to 5. ada aset lebih 50 tahun, TLDM perlu decide nak teruskan guna atau ganti dgn yg baru.
– ASEAN international fleet review penang 2025 (this is interesting, maybe august)
– Fokus kesiapsiagaan armada
– obsolescence issue. equiment OEM no longer exist.
– LCS GOWIND. 1st attempt to build a complex naval ship ourselves. 4D warfare. 2nd ship launch june 25, 1st ship commissioning 2nd/3rd qtr 26.
– LMS B2, STM Turkiye Corvette. All 3 ships to be completed 2027
– Scorpene MLU
– RMK13 2026-2030
1) MRSS
2) LMS B3 (not said, but this should be STM Turkiye B2)
3) ASW Helicopter
– TLDM dgn masyarakat, hari terbuka armada
– Kota Kinabalu
– Sandakan
– Langkawi
– Lumut (bulan 8)
– Mengurangkan kebergantungan luar, bina kapal sendiri di malaysia.
Hulu “Hopefully the existing Lead-Acid batteries could be replaced by Li-ion batteries, even if without extended hull section to fit extra batteries. Li-ion batteries will extend the next refit interval to be longer than the current 7-8 years interval.”
The naval group do a 7 year intervals not because of lead acid battery but because they use commercial grade nuclear reactor in their sub which requires replenishment every 7 year. Since they need to take it apart anyway to replenish the fuel every 7 year might as well do a refit every 7 years and thus a lot of components are built to be recheck or replaced every 7 years. And thus why people who ordered the non nuclear variant from them too would need to do refit every 7 year.
Also naval group had no existing operational Li-Ion battery nor AIP at the moment. What they have is paper AIP and a Li-Ion battery under work for the dutch barracuda. A sub that won’t hit the water in the next 10 years. And even then some gold plating R&D money still needed to *transplant it to the scorpenes
So even if one have the money one cannot have a Li-Ion battery NOT at least for another decades because one can’t just take existing 18650 Li-Ion battery and just put it in a subs like changing battery in a flashlight.
So The scorpenes are still gonna be able to dive for 4 days for the foreseeable future, heck possible even until retirements. Since if RMN acquire new subs from different manufacturer next RMK. There’s really no incentives to pay gold plating money to modernize the existing scorpenes.
Simply no money for so many boats, also Azlan will come say we dont have enough manpower to crew all of them if delivered at same time. Its likely a toss up between getting LMS3 or MRSS;
LMS3 will go to Turkey same as LMS2.
MRSS will go to Indon or SK (Makassar designer).
So which of these projects will be realised will depend on which geopolitics our Govt intend to pursue. At the moment the wind is blowing towards Turkey & muslim brotherhood. It would be more muddled if Turkey has a 120+ mtr, proven LPD design, then there is more push for its direction.
As for ASW choppers yeah, no way unless we willing to go with short legged Wildcats. A fleet of 8x Romeos will likely eat the entirety of TLDM RMK budgeting. Likely or unlikely TLDM chiefs to stomach this? Facing reality its either we get something better than nothing, or continue to hope & pray eventually TLDM will have tons of money to buy what they wanted. Yes lets pray hard and harap atas angin.
For all the RMK talk, how about Jebats rearmament, how likely will go thru in the RMK?
And as Perdana class is going for MLU, what about the slightly older Kedahs?
Speaking which, hoping Kedah design for LMS3 is a bridge too far. German engineering is too costly and too far to reduce down to fit LMS budget. Imho just stick with making more LMS2 for commonality sake.
Indera sakti class were built before we have
>Adnan
>Gempita
>PT-91
>Astros II
>whatever KJA we’re getting
>whatever SPH we’re getting
And when rmn were still flying wasps
Even utilities vehicles are bigger and heavier than the old land rover defender so no, rmn shouldn’t base its mrss needs from Indera Sakti. Hell if you ask me we should get a flat top LHD with enough spaces for at least 3 ASW/MUH sized helicopters and the capability to launch TUAV
When it comes to defense acquisition, it should always be G2G. No warships should be built in Malaysia after LCS scandal, or there will be delays and cost overrun once again!
Naval Group Li-Ion roadmap
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpSUu6ZbYAAMuGS.jpg
AIP disadvantage vs Li-Ion
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GeM249ha0AAdPr7.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GeM24_ObEAAEJn8.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GeM25BWbYAAa9WX.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GeM25FNaIAAlcWp.jpg
The Scorpene EVO proposal for Indonesia is a Scorpene with the same longer length of the Brazil AIP version, but the AIP area filled up with Li-Ion Batteries.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCu0TjiaQAAuZvP.jpg
We could maintain our Scorpene length as is, but just change the current Lead Acid batteries to Li-In batteries. Maybe the mission duration & submerged autonomy days is not as high as Scorpene EVO, but it will be better than our the current performance of our Scorpenes.
We should persevere with the Scorpene design as the whole submarine infrastructure and manpower resources that we have right now is created around the Scorpene submarine.
The RMN does not want second hand ships or aircraft, period.
“– Mengurangkan kebergantungan luar, bina kapal sendiri di malaysia.”
Bullshit talk when ongoing LMS2 is under construction in Turkey. I wonder if any reporter had call out this discrepancy. The admiral shouldnt be talking like a politician unless he is positioning himself to be one post retirement soon!
@Syam
“No warships should be built in Malaysia”
In practice if you dont want any scandal & such, nothing really should be Made in Malaysia, if we want our moneys worth as we dont have economy of scale for large numbers or can sustain such venture thru multiple years of production without making loss. This goes the same for cars as well (see Proton).
ASW Helicopter option
What we need to keep in mind.
US Navy own Seahawk helicopter replacement program, Future Vertical Lift-Maritime Strike (FVL-MS). Buying brand new something that is available right now will be not state of the art in about 10 years time.
https://www.twz.com/air/navy-mh-60-seahawk-replacement-will-leverage-armys-future-vertical-lift-tiltrotor-plans
Getting intrim ASW helicopters now to be used for 10-15 years would be cost effective, and will enable TLDM to get the FVL-MS when it is available in 10-15 years time.
He is not being a politician, he is just repeating what the ministry wants.
” The RMN does not want second hand ships or aircraft, period ”
Lets narrow it down to the JMSDF SH-60J, seems that quite a few TLDM delegation has met with JMSDF in Japan and here in malaysia about ASW helicopter mission with the SH-60J. I don’t really see any downside of getting those.
Lets say we get 8 operational + 8 more helicopters for spares, it would be more mission capable than say just 4 brand new ASW helicopters.
As for getting more ships being built in malaysia
with my alternative proposal, we can have
3x 90-95m OSV
20x LMS-X FCS5009
4x ARROWHEAD140 Frigate
4x SCORPENE Assembly
That is 31 ships by from now till 2040 that can be done in Malaysia by
OSV – any PETRONAS-approved shipyards
LMS-X – any PETRONAS-approved shipyards
ARROWHEAD140 – LUNAS in 2031-2040 after completing 6x GOWINDs
Scorpene – assenbly in Sepanggar, a process not different to refit activity done.
I will say no to shipyards that is set up just to win projects.
Plus for APMM
remaining 2 DAMEN OPV1800
Batch 2 MPMS (3 units)
40-45m NGPC / SGPC (30 units)
25m patrol boats (5 units)
FIC (50 units)
RHFB (150 units)
That is a lot of boats that if planned properly will give continuous projects for bona-fide local shipyards
Hulu “The Scorpene EVO proposal for Indonesia is a Scorpene with the same longer length of the Brazil AIP version, but the AIP area filled up with Li-Ion Batteries”
You missed out the keyword there. “Proposal”. As of now both are paper submarine with paper li-iOn and paper aip unless ID or Brazil sunk money’s into it.
Even for already in build system like KSS2 batch 3 with totally not paper AIP & not paper battery. They still quotes 7 years between order and delivery. And here you are talking about paper aip and paper battery available to be put into our scorpenes this RMK.
Hulu “We should persevere with the Scorpene design as the whole submarine infrastructure and manpower”
Why should we even consider sinking more money on more 4 day capable diving subs on the hope that either ID or Brazil sunk their money (assuming they would as ID seem flirting with turkeye subs a.t.m. when one can have a proper subs with AIP with 30 day diving capabilities at 70% the scorpenes cost and when an actual subs with both AIP and Li-Ion battery is already available from other manufacturer?
For someone who sell himself as champion of financial prudent you sure love gold plating.
Marhalim, any more AW 139 MOH? They only have 2 at the moment….
RMK13 2026-2030 will be in just a few months time.
We will see if the MRSS will be funded or not.
what-ever will be, will be.
Whatever it is, i am hoping that there will be money to complete the 6th GOWIND. Yes, it will probably be extra RM100-200 million for the assembly on top of the RM11.2 billion ringgit of the current cost, but it will reuse many of the paid-for hardwares, rather than leaving those hardwares to waste.
At the current time, no, as the priority is for the ASW helicopters. That said if the funding does not come for ASW helicopters, they could buy more MOH.
They have done studies on getting second hand aircraft – fixed wing and rotary ones. The result is that too much money will spend on upgrading the donated aircraft that they might as well used that money to buy new ones. That was the reasoning on not upgrading the Super Lynx.
Lunas is more interested in getting the ISS for the five LCS than anything else at the moment.
Adding at least 4 more AW139 (bought outright not leased) for MOH mission is as important as getting ASW helicopters IMO.
As for SH-60J, i dont think you can buy an equivalent new Romeo for the upgrade cost of SH-60J. Yes maybe say spending 10 million to upgrade a Super Lynx will mean still constrained by the small size, performance of the Super Lynx, but spending 10 million on a SH-60J Seahawk is a totally different matter.
” one can have a proper subs with AIP with 30 day diving capabilities at 70% the scorpenes cost ”
A Scorpene is USD600 million.
What kind of AIP sub is less than that? Also why do we need to go for obsolete AIP tech when the future is Li-Ion?
“He is not being a politician, he is just repeating what the ministry wants.”
Thats the thing! Hes not a politician so why need to add the party tag line unless he got ulterior motives? Just focus on pushing the equipment he needs in this RMK, thats it. Unless his minister is asking him to promo that tagline to support the politics lah.
“At the current time, no, as the priority is for the ASW helicopters.”
Funding for MOH actually came from the underfunded budget for ASW, so if the situation remains, its possible TLDM will divert it again for something else but definitely not another utility chopper buy again, the mega crony chopper lease deal will ensure it will go the leasing route. Is there any insurance we could recoup that unit loss?
“Lunas is more interested in getting the ISS for the five LCS”
I dont think LUNAS post LCS will be in any shape, esp financially, ready to take on new hightech naval ship constructions. Let them keep the ISS for LCS (and maybe add ISS for LMS1,2,3) at least it wont be loss making even if not turning a profit. ‘National projects’ never should aim to make money but also not lose it!
@Hulu
“I don’t really see any downside of getting those.”
If these start to breakdown and fall from the skies yes there are downsides unless you dont consider crew lives an asset worth keeping. Landbased util choppers are worth 2nd hand, not so much hard usage seabirds thats exposed to seasalt and harshest of weathers over decades of use.
“Adding at least 4 more AW139 (bought outright not leased) for MOH mission”
The footprint usage for TLDM doesnt require that many util choppers. TLDM priority now should be saving the kitty for meaningful ASW chopper. Meaning if they wanted Romeos they need to save the bank, no use crying about it. If they realised it wont come they just need to stomach Wildcats is not ideal but at least ‘something better than nothing’.
” If these start to breakdown and fall from the skies yes there are downsides unless you dont consider crew lives an asset worth keeping ”
A big if. Seahawks are reliable helicopters, even Israel got them secondhand from usa
https://defense-update.com/20160710_israel_sh60f.html
” The footprint usage for TLDM doesnt require that many util choppers ”
You are adding 11 new large ships in only 5 years time and you say TLDM don’t need 4 additional AW139???
“even Israel got them secondhand from usa”
Depends on usage. Ironically landing on gigantic flattops are far more forgiving than those landing on the rear of ships being tossed around during storms. And after retirement, US stocks are well preserved in dry desert, a geography which Japan doesnt have.
“11 new large ships TLDM don’t need 4 additional AW139???”
Nope, not all will embark a chopper or will need to fly one in during every patrol mission, and even for those onboard is mainly for ASW work thus why my priority is to get ASW choppers rather than more utils. Mind you if there is such a necessity we can also rely on sister services chopper fleet. You can even charter O&G choppers to fly out if really really needed.
Utils are simply workhorses, there are many ways to skin this horse.
“Ironically landing on gigantic flattops”
USN ASW Seahawks are deployed mostly on arleigh burke destroyers…
“Utils are simply workhorses”
LoL! many things you have no idea what missions those helicopters are doing.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpXj1G-bYAkUMCj.jpg
Joe “Thats the thing! Hes not a politician so why need to add the party tag line unless he got ulterior motives? Just focus on pushing the equipment he needs in this RMK, thats it. Unless his minister is asking him to promo that tagline to support the politics lah”
It’s not a political thing it’s bureaucratic thing. The purse keeper at MOF currently the owner of LUNAS. What do you expect? MOF to close down LUNAS so they can spend more of their limited foreign currency in their safe instead of just printing money away to buy more ship?
Joe “I dont think LUNAS post LCS will be in any shape, esp financially, ready to take on new hightech naval ship constructions”
Design & build custom made variant like the japs did with the F2 vs CKD (which the Turks & Korean did with F16) is two extremely different things.
You are still going to pay an arms and a leg if you gold plate design & build any custom variant even if you build it overseas. Just like the UAE did with their globaleyes and Makassar
Hulu “Also why do we need to go for obsolete AIP tech when the future is Li-Ion?”
Felt free to email the Korean ministry of national defense to complain about their stupidity in putting both AIP and Li-Ion battery in their subs.
” putting both AIP and Li-Ion battery in their subs ”
it is because they already have existing AIP and Li-Ion technology and support infrastructure.
For a country that does not have AIP, why do we want to handicap ourselves getting that? it needs specialized refueling systems. It is 1 time use and need to refuel back at base while Li-Ion can be recharged at sea with generators.
rmn already selected their preferred aws since inception of lcs…
Hulu “it needs specialized refueling systems.”
You mean hydrogen?
The same hydrogen in the soon to be Kuching ART, the same hydrogen in Kuching public busses? the same hydrogen that Sarawak has abundance off and is actively investing, producing and exporting?
Hulu “It is 1 time use and need to refuel back at base while Li-Ion can be recharged at sea with generators.
Never knew that diesel isn’t a 1 time used fuel and never need further refueling.
Maybe tomorrow I go buy a lorry and get myself a perpetual running machine
Anyway if ID dump naval group for the Turks just like india dump scorpenes for the type 214. Afterall the ID like india are looking for total TOT to gain sovereign submarine building capabilities. something that the Germans are proven willing to do compared to the french who complained about the Germans business model.
Your scorpenes Evo without AIP,VLS & non proven Li-Ion battery would likely cost even more then a KSS2 batch 3 that come with AIP & VLS on top of proven Li-Ion battery. Afterall the off the shelf 4 days diving capable without AIP scorpenes with 50% less time between refit already cost a whopping 50% more than a type 214 with an AIP and diving time of 30 days and 50% more time in between refit.
Not only it would cost more it would arrive much much later as scorpenes Evo is still a paper subs while KSS3 batch 2 is in production.
Not to mention with German derived subs like with android. Not only you can commission parts and solutions from the Germans,Turks and Korean. You probably can commission from ID and India too in the not to distance future, creating competition and thus value for money for the taxpayers. Rather then being locked in and held ransom by the french like the IOS walled garden.
Just like your Alex LMS that cost as much as 2-3 modernize jebat&kedah, and a type 31 that as useful as ADA just with a higher price, an OSV and RoRo which is unsurvivable without a Corvette escort. You sure love proposing to throw money into a firepit and then called it financial prudent.
@Hulu
“what missions those helicopters are doing.”
Its exactly what it is, utility roles that can be performed by others.
However ASW role can only perform by ASW choppers. A specialist role which WE ARE LACKING WHEN LCS STARTS COMES ONBOARD if we dont do anything now.
@Zaft
“It’s not a political thing it’s bureaucratic thing”
And why he see the need to do so? He is not a bureaucrat. Let the politicians talk politics & let the bureaucrat talk bureaucrats. Thats not his job.
“spend more of their limited foreign currency”
I rather we spend our limited budget on maximising value by getting as much as we can afford even if we go 100% foreign make rather than throwing money at local TOT projects which are doomed to fail.
“Just like the UAE did with their globaleyes and Makassar”
The 120+mtr MRSS we aimed for are quite off-the-shelf design following Makassar class, with perhaps changes in internal layout and different electronics & weapons fitment but otherwise nothing major engineering wise that would trigger your gold-plateness.