SHAH ALAM: In the previous post, Malaysia Defence posited that the MRSS will not be funded in RMK13, despite the RMN chief stating that it will be in the service’s funding priorities for the next five years. The RMN chief made the statement in an interview on RTM and in subsequent ones stated that the MRSS is one of the priorities in RMK13.
From the post:
Isn’t it from the horse’s mouth good enough then especially when there are plans to build a maritime center of excellence in Bagan Datuk? Well, the problem is I have been hearing from various sources recently that the MRSS will not be funded in RMK13. Hence the title of this post.
The industry it appears had heard the same thing and the shipyards that are the favourites to take part in the bids for the MRSS are not taking part in LIMA 25. I am making this point based on exhibitors list from the show’s organizer, accessed today. None of the South Korean shipyards including HD Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) is taking part.
PT PAL, the Indonesian state owned shipbuilder and pereniall favourite for the MRSS project, is also not listed in the exhibitors list.
They of course could take part in their respective countries pavilions of course as both South Korea and Indonesia has their own pavilions. That said PT Palindo Marine, the Indonesian privately owned ship builder is taking part.
There are other shipbuilders of course, like Abeking and Rasmussen from Germany, Damen Naval, Naval Group and Italian Fincantieri. From Malaysia, Lumut Naval Shipyard, Gading Group and Labuan Shipyard Engineering are leading the charge.
HD Hyundai, perhaps, is banking on the Bagan Datuk Maritime Centre Excellence as its campaign for the MRSS.
Is the absence of the shipyards a reliable indicator for the MRSS funding or the lack of it? No lah. We have been doing the LIMA series for the last three decades and we have yet to see the MRSS tunnel.
— Malaysian Defence
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Not just lack of interest but even after deals have been sealed, the drive to attend is not there. SK were adamant at pushing FA50 to us but once we sealed the deal for LCA/FLIT, they no longer interested to send Black Eagles to this LIMA edition. At least even a static display unit would help to promo local interest in the upcoming new jets. But such disingenuity, once the deal signed, ok pack up and lets move onto the next customer.
About MRSS, it seems everyone and their dog with any relevancy in this matter are not expecting it will come, all but TLDM chief. Whats the angle here? It cant be that he is blur sotong and talking his desires to a sniggling crowd, right? So does he know something the industry & general public dont about the budget, or is he putting on the media to pressure the politicians to give? (Does such tactic even work? 🤔 ).
Then theres TUDM chief and Kuwaiti Hornets but at least the politicians are in the know and doing something to push it (I hope).
If MRSS is not funded in RMK13, what else can the CAPEX money allocated being used for new ships other than the 3 LMSB3? more LMSB3? 6th LCS? Keep in mind that original 15to5 plan for 6x new NGPV (corvettes?Kedahs?LMSB2s?) and 8x new LMS on top of the 6x LCS and 8x LMS from previous 2 RMKs
If really no MRSS then even the RMN 15to5 is not followed nor on schedule. Money then can be allocate for 2 more LMSB3 for total of 8 LMS (B2 and B3) as per plan. 6th LCS is maybe in RMK14
Or the MRSS might just be pushed back to later half of RMK13 (2028 and beyond)
I assume that any upgrades and new missiles for Lekiu/Kedah/Kasturi (if there is any) is likely to come from OPEX as were done on Laksamanas and FACs programmes.
@Marhalim will you be in Langkawi for LIMA 2025?
“if really no MRSS then even the RMN 15to5 is not followed nor on schedule”
Sorry, i meant if really no MRSS then even RMN 15to5 realignment plan is not followed nor on schedule
Maybe the navy sacrifice MRSS fund for ASW helo?
So if we weren’t buying MRSS this RMK. What is it we would be buying?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but would an LHD be a better choice since it can do what an LPD does and might even be able to launch UCAV?
A LHD is much more expensive.
yes
current TLDM RMK13 2026-2030 plan is as per picture below (the right one)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GlQLZrxWIAE516T.jpg
2x MRSS (abt USD0.8bil)
3x LMSB3 (abt USD0.65bil) This should be STM Corvette batch 2 (to become 6 units in total), but stranger things happened before…
4x ASW HELO (abt USD0.4bil)
6x UAV (??bil)
Alternative?
This is my alternative plan
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GmZDvvhaUAAjR7M?format=jpg&name=4096×4096
Joe “About MRSS, it seems everyone and their dog with any relevancy in this matter are not expecting it will come,”
A LPD is pointless if one doesn’t have the amphibious IFV and attack helo in the first place.
Luqman “I assume that any upgrades and new missiles for Lekiu/Kedah/Kasturi (if there is any) is likely to come from OPEX as were done on Laksamanas and FACs programmes.”
CAPEX can be used for OPEX too if not mistaken.
Assuming each MRSS cost as much as an ADA. That’s mean the budget for each one of the MRSS can either bought them either 4 ASW helo or depends on how much gold plating are done modernize between 4-12 of their *Corvette.
Luqman “Sorry, i meant if really no MRSS then even RMN 15to5 realignment plan is not followed nor on schedule”
What’s else is new? Unlike the AF they been alingning and realigning the 15to5 from day 1. Even the newest realignment has been realigned 3 times already. 1st with 5 ADA, then 2 MRSS,2 MCM & 3 ADA to 2MRSS & 3 ADA.
Personally if it was me, i would axed/postponed the ADA then to axed/postponed the MRSS or ASW helo. The ada is great and all but not exactly revolutionary compared to the jebat and kedah. If they wanted to keep the jebat and kedah around what’s the point of more ADA?
“A LPD is pointless if one doesn’t have the amphibious IFV and attack helo in the first place.”
Only if you think an LPD sole purpose is for amphib assault just like Hulu…
Nope, as being discussed many times over, an MRSS with dock has many other functions during peacetime & wartime. It has far more utility than a sub.
“CAPEX can be used for OPEX too if not mistaken.”
Depends but traditionally OPEX is far bigger sum, and its much harder to justify getting CAPEX than OPEX so why waste the effort to wrangle CAPEX budget just to use for OPEX purpose? Whatmore TLDM is in need of more CAPEX, not OPEX, to get new ships & stuff.
Joe “Only if you think an LPD sole purpose is for amphib assault just like Hulu…”
One thing Hulu get right is that every other purpose of LPD except for ampib assault can be done by a RoRo.
Joe “why waste the effort to wrangle CAPEX budget just to use for OPEX purpose?”
If the purse holder know that each 10k service for bezza cost myr200 would they even budgeted more than that? Modernizing and weaponizing is more to the equivalent of buying new rim, radio or DRL for the bezza then just regular changing engine oil.
“every other purpose of LPD except for ampib assault”
Thats like saying an Axia could do everything a Hilux can do, except hauling that living room couch. No it doesnt work that way, just because an Axia also has 4 wheels doesnt mean it could go offroad like a Hilux. The same with RORO, it at best is a poor substitute as LPD are configured to be flexy in various functions as well have wartime role. TLDM MRSS requirement also calls for amphib operations so the idea to use RORO as replacement is moot. Again an LPD in our context is not for amphib assaults.
“If the purse holder know that each 10k service for bezza cost myr200 would they”
Doesnt work that way. Its the same angle used by then Opposition (now Govt) waving flyers and brochures in Parliament quoting much lower prices but oblivious that those specs arent apples to apples what the services are looking for. Also that was presumptuous as defence product prices arent set in stone nor open to any for purchase, a lot of customisation & configuration goes into, whether its Tier A countries or not, payment terms & if barter involved, the level of TOT if involved, currency fluctuations and hedging between both nations, then theres the provision for agents and undertable *ahem* (where percentage varies).
Upgrades are even moreso ambiguous as spareparts arent always readily available 24/7 and prices do fluctuate with supply & demand. Theres no open to public price list fixed like you see on a restaurant menu. Thats why OPEX is budgeted more to factor in such wild swings that they can still afford even in the worst circumstances (mostly anyways).
CAPEX are different in that prices would have been gauged before budgeting would begin but sometimes the variables I mentioned would be too far off the budget and the service would have to differ the buy or else use that money to buy something else (the keyword here is ‘buy’ as again CAPEX are usually for purchases rather than maintenance and its always much harder to justify buying new than to service existing stuff. Try to justify your wife why you need to buy a new car when your current ride just needs servicing. heh)
1. What should be the navy main priority?
2. How important it is for us to do amphibious operations? If we don’t do it, what would happen?
3. Does the navy need to spend as much as a GOWIND Frigate to get a ship for amphibious operations?
4. How can strategic sealift be done for less, and should something else (more frigate, more submarines) be had for the same amount of budget (from now to 2040)
Singapore Navy is now also going for unmanned MCM systems
https://www.stengg.com/en/newsroom/news-releases/st-engineering-delivers-mine-countermeasure-unmanned-systems-for-rsn
Moving forward, dedicated MCMV is no longer a need, but still TLDM plans to buy dedicated MCMVs in the future
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/more-pictures-of-lcs-in-2025/#comment-944632
Joe “Thats like saying an Axia could do everything a Hilux can do, except hauling that living room couch”
No one except Hulu want an axia.
I’m only saying currently you don’t even have a couch to haul.
Joe “Try to justify your wife why you need to buy a new car when your current ride just needs servicing. heh)”
More like you trying to shoehorn a brand new rim and radio on the oil changed budget. Unless you forgo oil changed you ain’t getting neither the new radio or rim. At best the changed money from oil changed may get you an air freshener or pre loved tyre but definitely not radio or rim.
Each RIM 116 cost $1 mil afterall. each kedah can carry 21, basically the missile for each ship would cost as much as a CG NGPC. If changed money from OPEX can cover the cost of those missiles. The navy would probably had done it decades ago.
As for how they able to do rehulled and repowered the laksmana & FAC. They probably goes all Hulu and remove all the expensive military equipment and turned it into a pure patrol boat.
“Moving forward, dedicated MCMV is no longer a need, but still TLDM plans to buy dedicated MCMVs in the future”
Because it can justify TLDM to get more ship. Also likes someone used to said…those Unmanned MCM need other ship to protect it while doing mine clearance
Err unmanned mcmv sure is advanced, cutting edge but still can beat human’s instinct and precision and gut feeling.Nothing can beat this even the most advanced billion dollars ai/robotics/machinery cant beat that..you can be sure of that.Thats why just go for hybrid MCMV + hydrographic survey vessel
” Because it can justify TLDM to get more ship ”
1. Multi role OSV is more justifiable than dedicated MCMV. OSV can do
– MCM mothership
– Special Forces support
– Submarine tender / support
– Hydrographic survey support
– Unmanned systems support
– Underwater infrastructure, undersea cable, pipeline security/surveillance
– HADR
2. OSV is cheaper, can be build by many shipyards in malaysia.
3. Platform agnostic MCM systems meant no issues with obsolescence with the OSV itself, as you can change to any new MCM systems in the future with no effect to the OSV.
“No one except Hulu want an axia.”
But your parroting Hulus logic here.
“you don’t even have a couch to haul.”
We have strategic plans for troop movement when the need arises. We also do troop movement on rotation basis so we do have something to move.
“If changed money from OPEX can cover the cost of those missiles. The navy would probably had done it decades”
Adding capabilities is park under CAPEX lah. Deswai the ASM missiles for Jebats are costed under RMK and not the regular servicing budget. Its only recently that TLDM chiefs got creative with loopholes and gotten extra capabilities when refreshing the fleet via OPEX budget. It still means that TLDM are saving on CAPEX for the big buys so no way their going to use that hardearned money for simple jobs under OPEX.
Here hopefully will put to rest this question over & over again.
1. What should be the navy main priority?
What is the role of BOMBA? Do they just stay in firestations waiting for alarm then only do their jobs? If you tell a fireman they will laugh at you. The same with TLDM, they not just have a core task during wartime but also daily mundane tasks during peacetime. Its this daily mundane tasks that justifies their existence otherwise you will politicians questioning why need them if were not going to war. Frigates have less roles in peacetime vs patrol boats & MRSS, moreso subs which has negligible peace duties advantages.
2. How important it is for us to do amphibious operations? If we don’t do it, what would happen?
Not critical important but its necessary when we need them such as during HADR or supporting our overseas operation (ie Malbatt in Lebanon, Ops Fajar in Somalia).
3. Does the navy need to spend as much as a GOWIND Frigate to get a ship for amphibious operations?
Depends on complexity, size, fitment & function of the boat. Military ships are highly function focused so you do get what you pay for. If you cheapen it, somethings got to give.
4. How can strategic sealift be done for less, and should something else (more frigate, more submarines) be had for the same amount of budget (from now to 2040)
Easy. Charter your logistics out to private haulers. You only need to pay when you use their service, no need to worry about buying boats & trucks, or maint, or crewing. Just be ready to pay thru your nose when your desperate and they raise their prices for profit. Of course you can Soviet style forcefully “requisition” their ships & crew but thats bad business….
And how to justify more frigates & more subs if were not going to war? Goes back to Question 1.
“No one except Hulu want an axia.”
I don’t mind having axia for strategic sealift so i can have extra money to buy a few more bugattis for my submarine capability. It is all in the priorities.
If you want expensive ships for MRSS, you will have inadequate number of submarines. If you get cheap ships that cost 10% of MRSS but can do 80% of the strategic sealift mission, we can double our new submarine numbers from 2 to 4.
That is the choice.
” The same with TLDM, they not just have a core task during wartime but also daily mundane tasks during peacetime. Its this daily mundane tasks that justifies their existence otherwise you will politicians questioning why need them if were not going to war ”
Wrong
For example, we have PDRM, we have our Army. We don’t design our army armoured vehicles to function as a police patrol car. Nobody complain why our army does not use tanks and armored vehicles to patrol the streets.
The same thing for our maritime security. We have our APMM, we have our TLDM. TLDM needs ships that could attack and survive attacks from enemy naval units. That is the priority. Peacetime patrols should be done by ships that are not technically complex so we could do patrols and presence missions economically, and persistently. The worst thing is to get a ship that is too expensively equipped to be a pure OPV, but too lightly armed and will be easily be sent to the bottom of the sea going against enemy naval forces. That is what the Kedah-class OPV is, something that costs 3/4th as much as the GOWIND Frigate (Kedah class USD300+ mil vs GOWIND USD400+ mil), but only able to do similar tasks to OPVs that cost 1/5th of itself like the APMM MPMS.
@Hulubalang
“That is what the Kedah-class OPV is, something that costs 3/4th as much as the GOWIND Frigate (Kedah class USD300+ mil vs GOWIND USD400+ mil) but only able to do similar tasks to OPVs that cost 1/5th of itself like the APMM MPMS.”
As usual you took the most extreme & least related example, selectively, to just point out your own idea. Stupidity. MPMS cannot do long range air surveillance.
The Kedahs (during their early days) were intended to be corvettes which RMN calls NGPV or currently LMS B2, an ‘OPV’ that have long range air surveilance, anti ship missiles and SHORADs. In asian/russian point of view the cost to value ratio of Kedah is bad but seems normal for Western corvette. Also the bad thing is the FFBNW policy. Well whatever happening now to Kedah is not what RMN wanted too as RMN also would like to fully armed them. So capability to value wise is more than just 1/5th
Again, for the whatever number of time it is now, RMN still needs ‘OPVs’ or just ships in general to do their peacetime duty.
” MPMS cannot do long range air surveillance ”
As does the Kedah class. A reason why I don’t want MRSS to free money for thigs like ARROWHEAD140.
” RMN still needs ‘OPVs’ or just ships in general to do their peacetime duty ”
No
Malaysia needs those things, and it can be operated by APMM.
Hulu “That is what the Kedah-class OPV is, something that costs 3/4th as much as the GOWIND Frigate (Kedah class USD300+ mil vs GOWIND USD400+ mil), but only able to do similar tasks to OPVs that cost 1/5th of itself like the APMM MPMS”
Never realized that tun fatimah can shoot Exocet and RIM 116, have radar that can detected flying object, can jammed enemies radar, can counter against jamming, and can do target recognitions and cooperative engagement to enable the AF to shoot their harpoon.
Hulu “Nobody complain why our army does not use tanks and armored vehicles to patrol the streets.”
Except in reality, the army does DO patrol. You really do love proposing buying 2 vehicle and hiring 2 crew just to do a single job. Huh?
Hulu “Peacetime patrols should be done by ships that are not technically complex so we could do patrols and presence missions economically, and persistently”
Still go on and on about constant present when what MY need is constant surveillance. Because unlike you, MY and a hose lot of countries not name Taiwan are worried about Chinese sea control and sea denial and totally not Chinese D-Day.
Kedah class
cannot shoot Exocet
Don’t have RIM 116
Yes have radar that can detected flying object
Cannot jamm enemies radar
Cannot counter against jamming
” worried about Chinese sea control and sea denial ”
But buy expensive MRSS instead of more submarines and frigates? Make it make sense…
Wait for it…
Hulu “But buy expensive MRSS instead of more submarines and frigates? Make it make sense…”
Frigate and submarine that you wouldn’t have because without MRSS you need to spend more money to upsized the army. Where the salaries alone would drawf the MRSS cost on an annual basis.
” MRSS you need to spend more money to upsized the army ”
Another wrong
Just need to equip EXISTING army units in East Malaysia with IFVs.
Something that can be done for PEANUTS by getting things that we already use, like used KIFVs.