SHAH ALAM: The RMN’s Material Headquarters has issued three separate quotation notices for the supply and delivery of three 12.7mm heavy machine guns and three 7.62mm machine guns and their associated accessories. The notices were published today (February 10) and closes on February 24.
The machine guns – heavy and light – will be used on the two Leonardo AW139 Maritime Operations Heliocopter (MOH/HOM) – M503-01 and M503-02 – stationed at the Kota Kinabalu naval base. The third MOH – M503-03- was destroyed in a fatal crash on April 23, last year.
The specifications for the 12.7mm machine guns:
Perolehan Membekal dan Menghantar Persenjataan Cabin Gunning Jenis 12.7mm Heavy Machine Gun (HMG) untuk Kegunaan Helikopter Operasi Maritim (HOM) TLDM. 3 x 12.7mm Heavy Machine Gun
The specifications for the 7.62mm LMG:
PEROLEHAN MEMBEKAL DAN MENGHANTAR CABIN GUNNING JENIS 7.62MM GENERAL PURPOSE MACHINE GUN (GPMG) UNTUK KEGUNAAN TLDM.3 set x 7.62mm General Purpose Machine Gun
Item: a) 7.62mm General Purpose Machine Gun b)
Not include Spare Barrel c) Operator/Maintainer
Toolkit dan Cleaning Kit d) Techincal
Documentation
The specifications for the accessories:
PEROLEHAN MEMBEKAL DAN MENGHANTAR PERALATAN TAMBAHAN CABIN GUNNING JENIS 12.7mm HEAVY MACHINEGUN (HMG) DAN 7.62mm GENERAL PURPOSE MACHINE GUN (GPMG) UNTUK KEGUNAAN TLDM
7.62mm General Purpose Machine Gun Item: a) 3 laras
x 7.62mm GPMG Spare Barrel b) 3 set x 7.62mm
GPMG Random Replacement Parts c) 3 set x 7.62mm
GPMG Operator/Maintainer Complete Toolkit dan
Cleaning Kit d) 3 set x 7.62mm GPMG Techincal
Documentation e) 3 set x 7.62mm GPMG Blank Firing
Adapter, Storage Case dan Ammunition Box
12.7mm Heavy Machine Gun Item: a) 3 laras x 12.7mm
HMG Spare Barrel b) 3 set x 12.7mm HMG Random
Replacement Parts c) 3 set x 12.7mm HMG
Operator/Maintainer Complete Toolkit dan Cleaning Kit
d) 3 set x 12.7mm HMG Techincal Documentation e) 3
set x 12.7mm HMG Blank Firing Adapter, Storage Case
dan Ammunition Box
As shown by the specifications, the accessories are actually items which would come standard with the machine guns. It is likely that the accessories were separated from the machine gun notices to ensure that the indicative cost does not go above RM500,000. As shown from previous quotation notices, RM500,000 is the limit that the procurement could be done through this method, anything above will need to be done via the Procurement Division instead. Despite this I am inclined to believe that the FN Herstal machine guns – the M3M 12.7mm and 7.62mm – will be chosen for the quotation notices as both are qualified on the AW139s. The M503-03 was delivered the with FN Herstal M3M 12.7mm HMG and its mounting accessories.
–Malaysian Defence.
External gun mount such as these would be ideal for the AW139 MOH.
It will also clear up more space in the cabin compared to normal internally mounted gun.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGPwzO9XEAAq4al.jpg
Also hopefully in RMK13 2026-2030, TLDM will request to buy outright another 4 AW139 MOH rather than leasing
The 2022 contract for 3x AW139 MOH is just for RM228 million
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/how-much-is-that-helicopter-in-the-window-part-2/
A contract for 4 units should cost only RM304 million.
Why still 3 sets of each? Its likely they could afford all the accessories within the budget if they went with 2 sets instead.
Is the RMN getting more HOMs with the new 28 leased helicopters?
No idea at the moment. But if leased they cannot be armed nor fitted with paratrooper seats.
No idea really.
For the FN MAG maybe, but not the HMG.
… – “TLDM will request to buy outright another 4 AW139 MOH rather than leasing”
If it was up the RMN it woukd be a, purchase, not a leasing arrangement.
“For the FN MAG maybe, but not the HMG.”
Whats the purpose of 2 diff weapons? Is it to arm 1 heavy & 1 light per chopper? If yes then we only need 2 sets of lights & heavies. The 3rd pair now no longer needed and with the big push to leasing choppers, its unlikely we will buy new ones.
As for fitment, weapons are not allowed but I believe cabin config can be customised if the next leased choppers are going to come from factory (like PUTD AW149).
The accessories don’t include an optic as far as I can tell.
A point can also be made that a moving helicopter will only have a brief – unless in hover – window of opportunity to engage a target, made harder if it’s moving. As such there is a need to get as many rounds on target in the shortest possible time, resulting in the need for a mini gun. Yes in case prices are mentioned, I’m talking from an operational perspective rather than a monetary one.
Same reason why various navies now go for pintle mounted mini guns rather than GPMGs or HMGs – to put as many rounds on target at small targets moving at great aired towards a ship
I believed they will only arm one gun at a time. The HMG and MAG fire different rounds and has a different safety needs. It is because they leased they cannot be armed.
MGs have only been fitted one at a time, never in pairs. Weight reasons or redundent I suppose.
Funny enough until a HMG was seen fitted to a Nuri post Lahad Dato the Nuris never had them. BTW has anyone here been to Museum Negara lately? There use to be a Alo 3 in the courtyard at the back, with its 20mm gun.
The EC725s and Black Hawks can be fitted with two guns on both sides off the cabin, the FN MAG or the Mini gun. For the HMG even the EC725 can only mount one.
Does PUTD A109 still equip with mini gun?
Yes, they usually fire them during the annual LKT.
Blackhawk can mount 2 HMG, one on each side of the helicopter.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-kFwX6aEAAdiIN.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FwiVi48WcAARnVH.jpg
Yes thank you but I was reffering to the fact that the RMN’s Lynxs and Fennecs are never armed with a pair of HMGs or GPMGs. Redundent or weight issues I suppose.
“MGs have only been fitted one at a time, never in pairs”
I recall even Vietnam war era hueys have door MGs on both sides. Current choppers have better lifting capacity than those hueys.
More pictures of the blackhawk HMG external mount, this time with optional pylons to hang rocket pods.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GluLYbpXgAA9ARM.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GluLtpwbsAAk7jm.jpg
one of many reasons why the blackhawks are a good multirole platform for medium lift missions in PUTD.
there has been so many weapons combination that PUTD can choose for the blackhawk. From self defence, to fire support, all the way to a flying rocketship.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GkyNODzaAAA2-t8.jpg
On RMN helicopters, which was from the onset were meant to carry a single gun.
“I recall even Vietnam era”
Was referring to the RMN’s helicopters.
… – “One of the reasons why the Blackhawks are good multi role platforms”.
The Cougar is also a good multi role platform. The question for me and one we can’t answer with certainty is which is more expensive to fly per hour, which requires more post flight maintenance and is support and spares cheaper from Airbus or Sikorsky?
” The question for me and one we can’t answer with certainty is which is more expensive to fly per hour, which requires more post flight maintenance and is support and spares cheaper from Airbus or Sikorsky? ”
The numbers are out there
both UH-60 and H225 costs about the same per hour to fly, and that is including sustainment costs, its around USD4,100 per hour.
UH-60 spares can be had from plenty of 3rd party sources, and also from surplus stocks. There is also plenty of used UH-60 available, that we could acquire for cheap.
“There use to be a Alo 3 in the courtyard at the back, with its 20mm gun.”
There is this one pic in wikimedia dated 2014, gun assembly inside cockpit minus gun barrel.
RMN go for HMG-GPMG rather than Gatling I think for SF support.
nimitz,
Depends on requirements. If one only has a brief and there is a need to get as many rounds as possible on a, target theb a mini gun is the way to go.
… – “There is also plenty of used UH-60 available, that we could acquire for cheap”
Acquire “cheap” is subjective. What’s “cheap” for one user, might not be for another. How much will it cost to get the flying? What needs replacing? Will the stored airframes be expensive or maintenance extensive to fly? All three need answering before we can truly say it’s “cheap”. Or is assuming, like with the JMSDF Seahawks that all is well?
On another topic Sarawak is providing 11 million for the army to get UASs to monitor the shared border. 11 million can get one a lot of Mavics or other off the shelf commercial solutions.
I’m curious as to whether the FlyEyes end up with an artillery or infantry unit or with intel.
@Nimitz
Miniguns are inherently much heavier, takes up more room, and needs more ammo (which also takes up more room). Imho its a bit too much for a door gun with the space needing to carry troops as well. I can see why the A109 was modded to mount that weapon as it can be exclusively use for fire support the troop transporters (similar how US SF uses armed Little Birds as fire support to their Blackhawks).
” Acquire “cheap” is subjective ”
I have put out the costings of the Korean UH-60P before (which is being retired at 20 years old with plenty of life left), also the costings of the Portugal deal.
In any matrics, it is cheaper than buying new or even the RM16.5 billion lease.
Your costings aside, have you put out how many hours they’ve flown on average, what is needed to get them flying again and what needs to be changed/replace? Do your costings indicate how much operating costs will increase as the platforms get older?
Buying cherry tiggo pro without the 7 years warranty and 7 years free service outright by cash is cheaper then by installments with warranty and free services
Who would have guessed right?
” Your costings aside, have you put out how many hours they’ve flown on average, what is needed to get them flying again and what needs to be changed/replace? Do your costings indicate how much operating costs will increase as the platforms get older? ”
Yes
Portuguese costings include refurbishment/upgrade (including full glass cockpit) to flying condition including training and 5 year maintenance package.
Use the Portuguese numbers minus the korean numbers you can get the maintenance cost for 5yrs.
@ darthzaft
Keep your uninformed snarks to yourself.
Pros and cons. It is more expensive but has no recoil and is power operated. In situations where a gunner only has a brief window and needs to place as much rounds on target – either because he’s on a moving helicopter or an object is moving at great speed towards him – then a mini gun is needed.
It has a high ROF but then the gunner is supposed to fire in trained burst and it delivers more rounds on target faster than a GPMG or HMG.