SHAH ALAM: KM Banggi – pennant number 7502 – one of two MMEA OPVs assigned to patrol Sabah waters, is returning into service after undergoing a 26-month refit. MMEA director-general Admiral (Maritime) Rosli Abdullah took official delivery of the OPV at the Kota Kinabalu port on April 17. The other OPV assigned for the same job is KM Arau – pennant number 8704.
According to Rosli, the work on Banggi includes replacing the main engine, restoring electrical and electronic systems, and conducting a thorough inspection of the ship’s structure. The refit was conducted at the Shin Yang shipyard in Miri, Sarawak. This is the same shipyard which is conducting a refit on the KA Tun Azizan. The work done on Banggi is the same with other MMEA and RMN patrol boats to extend their service lives. It is likely that the OPV will continue to be in service for another decade or so.
Pictures of Banggi showed that she is still not fitted with a gun on the A, forward position. A model of the ship presented to Rosli showed a gun on that position though. Banggi, ex KD Marikh used to have a 100mm gun on the same position as with her sister ship, KM Langkawi – ex KD Musytari. Langkawi is undergoing a refit at the Lumut Naval Shipyard in Lumut, Perak.
There is talk that both ships will be fitted with the Aselsan SMASH 30mm RWS as with KM Tun Fatimah, Bagan Datuk class patrol ships and the future MPMS.
The release from MMEA:
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ππ’π§π πππ‘πππππ¨, ππ³ ππ½πΏπΆπΉ β Keupayaan keselamatan perairan negara, khususnya di perairan Sabah, kini diperkukuhkan dengan kembalinya Kapal Maritim (KM) BANGGI ke pangkuan Agensi Penguatkuasaan Maritim Malaysia (Maritim Malaysia) selepas menjalani proses pembaikan dan naik taraf menyeluruh selama lebih dua tahun.
Majlis penyerahan rasmi KM BANGGI daripada Shin Yang Shipyard Sdn. Bhd. kepada Maritim Malaysia berlangsung penuh simbolik di Sabah Ports, Kota Kinabalu, Selasa lalu. Majlis telah disempurnakan oleh Ketua Pengarah Maritim Malaysia, Laksamana Maritim Datuk Haji Mohd Rosli bin Abdullah.
Menurut Datuk Haji Mohd Rosli, kapal ini menjalani kerja-kerja repowering jentera utama dan refit struktur serta sistem teknikal selama 26 bulan di limbungan kapal Shin Yang, Miri, Sarawak.
Ujar beliau lagi, proses tersebut merangkumi penggantian enjin utama, pemulihan sistem elektrik dan elektronik, serta pemeriksaan menyeluruh struktur kapal.
βKembalinya KM BANGGI ini bukan sekadar simbolik, sebaliknya merupakan lonjakan strategik dalam usaha memperkukuh rondaan dan kesiapsiagaan Maritim Malaysia di perairan Sabah, Sarawak dan Labuan yang berdepan pelbagai cabaran keselamatan maritim,β katanya.
Majlis berkenaan turut menyaksikan sesi menandatangani dokumen penyerahan antara Shin Yang Shipyard dan Maritim Malaysia, serta pertukaran cenderamata sebagai tanda penghargaan.
Seterusnya, tetamu diberi peluang meninjau KM BANGGI yang kini siap siaga untuk kembali menjalankan tugas operasi.
Dalam sesi lawatan tersebut, Datuk Haji Mohd Rosli turut menyampaikan amanat khas kepada anak-anak kapal melalui sistem komunikasi radio sebelum sesi bergambar kenangan bersama seluruh kru KM BANGGI diadakan di dek kapal.
Turut hadir dalam majlis tersebut ialah Timbalan Ketua Pengarah (Logistik) Maritim Malaysia, Laksamana Madya Maritim Datuk Saiful Lizan bin Ibrahim; Pengarah Eksekutif Shin Yang Shipyard, Mr Vincent Ling Lu Yew; serta pegawai kanan Maritim Sabah dan Wilayah Persekutuan Labuan.
The two Langkawi class OPVs were were originally commissioned into the Royal Malaysian Navy in 1987, mostly for patrols in the Malaysian Exclusive Economic Zone in the South China Sea. Both were originally armed with a 100mm main gun and a twin 30mm cannons. The guns was taken off for some time now.
— Malaysian Defence
She had an Emerlec mount and a Cutlass ESM. Although designated a OPV like the Kedahs she also was intended to perform various roles.
Before refit, KD banggi was refitted with 57mm Bofors replacing the 100mm Creusot Loire, removed 30mm emerson electrics, while remained with DA05 air search radar (rear mast), Philips 9GA-600 radar (top of front mast) and Philips 9LV 230 FCR with Optronic backup (grandfather to the current SAAB CEROS 200) on the bridge roof.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Go0C7oVaMAAn5Vb.jpg
Seems all of those have been taken out during refit.
Taking out all obsolete weaponry and electronics can be done for Kedah and Lekiu, so it could economically function as OPV, while saving money by not doing upgrades to solve obsolescence.
from the high res picture
https://www.malaysiandefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/DJI_0009E-copy-fhd.jpg
The quality of the refit is top notch, almost like a new ship. Congrats to Shin Yang on the effort.
The rear mast has been removed altogether, so there will be no replacement for the DA05 air search radar. If the ship is to be fitted with ASELSAN SMASH 30mm RCWS, will other Turkiye systems be fitted to the ship? Or probably the RCWS will be a standalone system.
So has its sistership KM Langkawi completed her refit in Lumut?
Langkawi is on the water based on pictures of Lunas of other ships. Probably doing harbour trials already.
okay got to see KM Langkawi harbour trials pictures
Comparing the looks of the refit between the two, KM Banggi looks in a better shape. Maybe KM Langkawi refit is not as extensive as KM Banggi?
… – “will be no replacement for the DA05 air search radar”
Has been inoperable for years.
… – “Taking out all obsolete weaponry and electronics can be done for Kedah and Lekiu, so it could economically function as OPV”
The only problem with this repeated suggestion is that even with various systems taken off both ships are aged and worn out. The pertinent question which you’ve never asked or considered is whether the MMEA wants the ships. As mentioned the long term plan is to reduce not increase the logistical/support footprint. The MMEA is not the USCG abd the reason it got the decades old ex USCG ship was out of necessity not choice.
… – “Seems all of those have been taken out during refit”
They were hardly operable when both were handed to the MMEA and let’s just say the RMN wasn’t unhappy about handing them over.
… – “while saving money by not doing upgrades to solve obsolescence”
The engine, gearbox, generators, props, shafts, ventilation systems, electrical systems and a host of other things need maintenance and some will need replacing. As has been pointed out to you they are unceasingly becoming expebsive to run and this is not solely related to combat systems which is precisely why the RMN would like to retire them as soon as it can.
By 2030 APMM large OPV fleet
2x Langkawi class
3x Tun Fatimah class
3x MPMS
1x KM Arau
1x KM Pekan
2x ex USCG WMEC Reliance-class
total of 12 ships
APMM could easily get 8 more large OPVs before 2030 by getting
6x Kedah class
2x Lekiu class
transferred from TLDM to APMM. Both kedah class and Lekiu class are relatively young, even compared to KM Banggi and KM langkawi. Kedahs are around 19 years old while Lekiu 26 years old.
TLDM will be getting at least 11 new Frigates and Corvettes (5x GOWIND, 6x STM Turkiye Corvette LMS B2) before 2030 to replace the 8 Kedahs + Lekius.
The MMEA wants to get out of the hand me down assets business; assets expensive and problematic to run. It also wants to reduce its already large support and logistical footprint caused by the plethora of things operated. Getting already aged and worn out hulls which will be more aged and worn out when they’re retired would be a highly regressive move and something the MMEA would not want; irrespective of whether it looks – like most things – a sound move on paper.
“There is talk that both ships will be fitted with the Aselsan SMASH 30mm RWS”
Logical as it given a certain level of firepower without appearing too overkill for a CG outfit. Plus it also helps logistics by having only 1 main calibre.
“The quality of the refit is top notch, almost like a new ship.”
Looks can be deceiving with a new coat of paint. Its not as comprehensive as OP Plus program to replace hull & superstructure as well so alas it will need to be replaced sooner than later.
“APMM could easily get 8 more large OPVs before 2030 by getting 6x Kedah class 2x Lekiu class”
This is rubbish, strengthening MMEA while reducing the strength of RMN by 2030 is a blatantly stupid idea, no benefit at all, there I have said it. Kedahs and Lekius still have lots of life in them as RMN surface combatant.
… – “Both kedah class and Lekiu class are relatively young, even compared to KM Banggi and KM langkawi. Kedahs are around 19 years old while Lekiu 26 years old”
You overlooked one comparison. Age at the time of transfer is one thing. The situation now; another. Back then the MMEA has no choice but to accept what was given. At present and especially in a few more years when ex RMN ships are even more aged and worn out; the MMEA is in a position to say no.
You can repost the lists as much as thy want and push your narrative but not only does the MMEA not want the ships but likely not to be offered too. As it is the RMN is finding them problematic due to age and not just because of the combat sysfems as you insist. Naturally the very notion that the MMEA might not want them is anathema to you.
According to Google, Obsoletion refers to the act of something becoming no longer in use or no longer useful, often due to a newer or better replacement. Not just it’s being old.
Just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s obsolete, just look at the Arleigh Burke, it is there for the last 35 years and would continue to be there for the next 35 years. Just because something is new doesn’t mean it isn’t obsolete, just like type 056, which no longer fit PLAN requirements.
The meko is far from being obsolete, the German are still building it while RMN still buying new ship within the meko displacements and equipment fit out.
Meanwhile The FAC, laksamana & even the newer keris are obsolete. Since we already have coastal radar for surveillance. There’s no need for these small displacement ship around anymore except for patrol duties.
@ Luqman
” This is rubbish, strengthening MMEA while reducing the strength of RMN by 2030 is a blatantly stupid idea, no benefit at all, there I have said it. Kedahs and Lekius still have lots of life in them as RMN surface combatant. ”
How can 11 fully missile armed, all of them even larger than the Lekius be a reduction in strength of TLDM? Do you know how to do elementary maths or not (11-8=3 more ships than original)? Passing Kedah + Lekiu to do purely OPV missions with APMM is also still ships patrolling for Malaysia, not Timbuktu.
Below is the TLDM and APMM new large ship commissioning status from 2025-2030
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gm8MgV-bEAAt1Qf.jpg
TLDM will have a minimum of 11, with the possibility of 12 brand new fully armed frigates and corvettes, all of them larger and more powerful than the Lekiu-class frigates.
APMM could have at least 20 large OPVs by 2030 by passing Kedah and Lekius to be operated as OPVs. From 2031 and above, as the required large OPV numbers have been met, APMM could concentrate on replacing them with new large OPVs as budget allows.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GnCKxnoboAATzac.jpg
As per TLDM own calculations, we actually need 5.5 ships to be able to patrol the whole of malaysian maritime zone in 28 hours, so having 11 of them will have each zone actually patrolled by 2 ships.
Malaysia EEZ = 97,574.451 nautical miles2
Each 28hr patrol block = 18,000 nautical miles2
Ships needed = 97,574.451 / 18,000 = 5.42 ships.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GlQW3FaaMAAAsTG.jpg
A combination of TLDM and APMM ships is more than enough to cover all of our maritime zone effectively
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GokINSIXQAEkPKu.jpg
@Hulualang
“How can 11 fully missile armed, all of them even larger than the Lekius be a reduction in strength of TLDM?” “Do you know how to do elementary maths or not (11-8=3 more ships than original)?”
A stupid question and a stupid statement. Too bad I am too stupid because my maths says it is 11+8=19, not 11-8=3, even kindergarden kids cannot understand my maths. RMN says they need 30+ large surface ships. That’s why I say that your plan just weakens RMN even more, to be CLEAR it is 19 (mine) vs 11 (yours), not too difficult to understand right?
“As per TLDM own calculations, we actually need 5.5 ships”
As per RMN calculations, RMN needs ‘5.5 RMN ships’ excluding MMEA ships, to patrol whole of Malaysian maritime zone. Can’t you understand that logic?
Of course you will disagree with all of my statement above as i can’t even do elementary maths let alone kindergarden logic. Let me repeat, your original statement
is blatantly stupid.
Luqman – Kedahs and Lekius still have lots of life in them
Azlan – As it is the RMN is finding them problematic due to age and not just because of the combat sysfems as you insist.
So which one is which????
My POV
1) Both Lekius and Kedahs has been diligently refitted throughout the years. Currently KD Jebat is undergoing through refit including removal of its main engines. So their hull and machinery should be fine technically.
2) The main issue with maintaining them as “combattants” are upgrading the CMS, radar, missiles of the Lekius; and adding missiles, replacing CMS, adding air defence systems to the Kedahs. Comprehensive upgrade of Lekius smaller sisterships, the Bung Tomo class corvettes of TNI-AL is costing around USD65 million each, with TACTICOS CMS, SMART-S Mk2 radar, MM40 exocets, VL-MICA. To get something like that for 8 Kedahs and Lekius, that is the need around USD520 million. The cost to assemble the 6th GOWIND is probably 1/10th of that.
3) Removing obsolete CMS etc and operating Kedah class and Lekiu class ships as purely OPVs with APMM will not cost money, compared to trying to upgrade them.
“As per RMN calculations, RMN needs β5.5 RMN shipsβ excluding MMEA ships, to patrol whole of Malaysian maritime zone.”
Oops sorry my mistake, it should be as per RMN calculations, RMN needs β12 RMN shipsβ excluding MMEA ships, to patrol whole of Malaysian maritime zone at the same time.
@Hulubalang
“need around USD520 million. The cost to assemble the 6th GOWIND is probably 1/10th of that.”
Well then just slap in extra usd52 million for total of usd604 million and wala RMN have 8 upgraded large surface combatant plus an LCS.
The TRS-3d may not need to be replaced yet unless buying a new radar is cheaper than the cost to do SLEP on it
“So which one is which????”
You pick and choose whatever you want (including your own POV)
You cannot plan the maritime defence of malaysia just looking at TLDM. It does not work that way.
Even TLDM calculations does not even tell why they put the number at 12, when its own calculation (1 ship can cover 18,000 nautical miles2) divided by malaysian EEZ area is just 5.5.
Malaysia EEZ = 334,671 km2 = 97,574.451 nautical miles2
” usd604 million ”
even 1x MRSS is USD408 million. 3x STM Corvette LMS B2 is USD650 million. So which one you wanna cancel to upgrade the 6x Kedah and 2x Lekiu?
@Hulubalang
“even 1x MRSS is USD408 million”
For the second time, RMN will not choose the UAE Makassar due to their revised 15 to 5 plan need just 2 helicopter landing pads for MRSS ie the smaller 122m Makassar which is usd70 million few years back.
“So which one you wanna cancel to upgrade the 6x Kedah and 2x Lekiu?”
Why not do all? The bare minimum is just give Kedah’s and Lekius the NSM. No need to do all by 2030, Kedah’s radar no need replacement yet, so it might not even cost usd65 million for each ship depending on the class. Can be done in stages up to 2035 starting with the Lekius 1st. For sure RMN will not execute my suggested plan.
smaller Makassar has even less vehicle capacity than the JHSV/EPF
So why bother?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWACxzpagAEuuxO.jpg
Hulu “the Bung Tomo class corvettes of TNI-AL is costing around USD65 million each, with TACTICOS CMS, SMART-S Mk2 radar, MM40 exocets,”
$65 mil each for a ship as capable as the ada which cost $250 mil brand new compared to paying $65 mil to get 700 tons Alex LMS which basically is a civilian petrol boat with some container on it that can’t go to the EEZ, can’t really do any surveillance nor capable of independence operation. What it can do is follow the ada and gowind around because obviously buying 2 ship and hiring 2 crew to do 1 job is the epthimaty of efficiency rather then I don’t know just buying 1 ship and hiring 1 crew to do 1 job.
The funny thing is if you wanted a ship that can carry container around and following the surface combatants around. You better off just using the CG cutter for that.
Hulu “Even TLDM calculations does not even tell why they put the number at 12, when its own calculation (1 ship can cover 18,000 nautical miles2) divided by malaysian EEZ area is just 5.5.”
Because rule of 3?
Also the radar can only pick up a radius of 100 km for surface object ie an area 31415.93 kmΒ². You need at least 10 surface combatants to cover an area of 330,000 kmΒ². Which means 30 surface combatants fleet. Oh wow. Exactly the numbers of surface combatants that RMN wanted.
Hulu “Removing obsolete CMS etc and operating Kedah class and Lekiu class ships as purely OPVs with APMM will not cost money, compared to trying to upgrade them.”
Penny wise pound foolish idea. You only safe money because you reducing the surveillance area by reducing the number of surface combatants capable of independence operation by brilliantly insisting that RMN requirements for constant surveillance means constant present.
” You need at least 10 surface combatants to cover an area of 330,000 kmΒ² ”
Do you think ships are stopping in the middle of the sea the whole time?
Hulu “Do you think ships are stopping in the middle of the sea the whole time?”
Real time surveillance & target recognitions remember?
Something you probably need before you go around shooting harpoon,JSM etc etc. well unless the enemies captain are stupid and sail in a straight line that is.
Hulu “smaller Makassar has even less vehicle capacity than the JHSV/EPF
So why bother?”
RoRO is useless without the LPD because you can’t land heavy vehicle not before you secure the beach.
So why bother ?
Luqman “For the second time, RMN will not choose the UAE Makassar due to their revised 15 to 5 plan need just 2 helicopter landing pads for MRSS ie the smaller 122m Makassar which is usd70 million few years back.”
Old Makassar like Hulu Alex LMS are cheap because it’s built on civilian standard. The radars & equipment are not hardens against jamming, there’s no self defense function and a Lot of things the PH navy find lacking, at least according to a naval news interview.
New Makassar however are a clean slate build and UAE only ordered 1. So a huge chunk of the price is actually R&D. Something Hulu conviniencely ignore to make his argument hold water.
Just look at this this way BAE charged 200% more per ship for a fleet of 9 for RAN hunter class while naval group charged 50% more per ship for a fleet of 5-6 ship for the gowind and bellhara. So unless we go bonkers with gold plating, the UAE Makassar won’t cost us $450 mil.
Similarly we ain’t gonna get a scorpenes Evo at the price of a scorpenes that he insisted as possible. Just because he ignores R&D cost doesn’t mean naval group wouldn’t as well. Just look at the R&D cost naval group charged the Aussie and dutch for the non nuclear barracuda.
Similar too is his quoted price tag of 65mil upgrade bil per jebat. We don’t know how much is there is R&D, how much is it equipment & manpower cost. If the dutch follow the usual prizing strategy and markup by 100-200% then we are actually looking at between 30-50% of ID bill for us. Similarly it won’t cost us $65 mil to modernize the kedah as the Germans already paid for the R&D for the K130 batch 2.
The likely reasons Hulu include the R&D cost is simply to make his Alex LMS idea hold some water. I mean who would want to spend $65 mil to get a small laksmana size civilian standard patrol boat when modernizing the jebat and kedah is cheaper by 70 to 50% then?
Then Not only his idea would cost more but we would end up with too much gun only patrol boat but too little surface combatants meaning a 70% gap in surveillance and target recognitions capabilities in the EEZ.
Anyway if the MRSS and MCM has self defense capabilities it’s also likely have surveillance and target recognitions capabilities. And thus RMN would have 6 LCS,6 ada,6 kedah, 2+2 lekir&lekiu, 2 MRSS and 4 MCM. Meaning 28 surface combatants fleet by 2040. And it’s not like they sacrificing undersea capabilities as Hulu love to claim as we would have 2 new subs + 2 existing subs by 2040 as well.
@Zaft
“RoRO is useless you canβt land heavy vehicle not before you secure the beach.”
Not just that, ROROS also need port or dock to disembark. Otherwise will need a Mulberry setup or a barge to a LCU…
As for MRSS, the cost of UAE Makassar is also due to its large size (160 mtr). Its too large for us, been hinted to be about 120+ mtr. So with reduction in size also the cost complexity down as well, definitely will not be $400mil.
” Not just that, ROROS also need port or dock to disembark. Otherwise will need a Mulberry setup or a barge to a LCU ”
Most army vehicles will need LCU too as they cannot swim. LCU for PT PAL LPD only has 20ton cargo limit anyway.
I mentioned that in the other tered but in case you missed,
There are several kinds of LCUS (wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Utility)
One such the Spanish LCM-1E is about same size as above (PT PAL) but able to transport up to MBT size vehicle.
If you need LCU/LCM to transfer vehicles from ship to shore, why again do you need dedicated expensive MRSS?
You can carry LCU/LCM on the deck of ROROs like the US Maritime Sealift Command ROROs…
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/USNS_Bob_Hope_%28T-AKR_300%29_at_anchorage_in_Souda_harbor.jpg
Joe “As for MRSS, the cost of UAE Makassar is also due to its large size (160 mtr). Its too large for us, been hinted to be about 120+ mtr. So with reduction in size also the cost complexity down as well, definitely will not be $400mil”
Steel are cheap, equipment however are not. Case in point the Chinese build kriss class cost as much as the tun fatimah despite being half the size.
There’s no real official confirmation of what the fit out of UAE LPD is. But from official picture and model it’s does seem to have a cone structure thats possibly house an air search radar, probably something it need as the official model shows it with a RIM 117 rather then a self contained system like searam.
@Hulu
“from ship to shore, why again do you need dedicated expensive MRSS?”
Because port to port transfers is just ONE facet role of MRSS. Its called ‘Multi-Role’ for a purpose and which is why deemed to need a well deck with LCUs.
“You can carry LCU/LCM on the deck of ROROs”
But you need to lug a barge as well for transfer, another weak link in the mess of ships. An LPD will carry its complement & LCU and able to launch ship to shore without any intermediaries.
@Zaft
“Steel are cheap, equipment however are not.”
Engineering designing a larger ship is more resource intensive and sometimes will need external highly paid consultants (see Gowind upsize to LCS). OTOH its cheaper to engineer something smaller but retaining same structural integrity. Chinese prices cannot be a good benchmark as its known the state subsidies their manufacturing sector thus whatever they export is always will undercut whatever produced locally even at cost price (see BYD & Chery cars). Intrinsically a cheaper vessel can still be derived from a more expensive one if the state & yard wills it so (see ADA class downcosted to LMS2) but thats beyond the scope of engineering possibility.
“official confirmation of what the fit out of UAE LPD is”
Knowing its from rich Mid East country it will be fully fitted out, likely inc CIWS.
” Case in point the Chinese build kriss class cost as much as the tun fatimah despite being half the size ”
LMS68 is actually 1/3 the size of Tun Fatimah. You compare the displacement, not the length. It is similarly equipped, with just 1x 30mm RCWS.
A big reason why we need to properly give APMM the resources for it to do its job to deal with China Coast Guard. We could have had additional 4x 1800ton OPV to counter chinese coast guard for the same money we spent on 4x 700ton LMS68.
For just a few more million (USD68.8 mil), that is the cost of the new 99m 3000+ton MPMS…
Even if we stump out the money for 12 MPMS, that is just USD825.6 million, the cost of just 2 GOWINDs…
Joe “Engineering designing a larger ship is more resource intensive and sometimes will need external highly paid consultants (see Gowind upsize to LCS).”
Technically according to naval group, our gowind is the original gowind as we had pay for the R&D. But since we owned the blueprint they just changed enough so they are able to offered *smaller gowind at even higher level of complexity to others at 70% of our cost.
UAE Makassar seem to utilize the same Leonardo radome as their recently launch SG design falaj 3 missile boat. Each of the 3 falaj 3 cost a whopping MYR 1.3 billion. Meanwhile their Makassar *only cost MYR1.6 bil for the same radar and combat capabilities.
Thus the reasons why UAE Makassar is expensive is not because of the amount of steel but rather because it’s a full fledged surface combatants.
If RMN keep the same combat capabilities and then go around ordering a smaller ship from PT PAL then it would be more expensive because you now incurred redesign cost. Similarly if we ordered a smaller LPD from someone else then try to make it as capable as UAE Makassar it would still end up being more expensive because of the integration cost.
Obviously we can just ordered none surface combatants capable LPD. But then we still need to spend at least MYR1 bil to get an Ada to follow it around.
Hulu “A big reason why we need to properly give APMM the resources for it to do its job to deal with China Coast Guard”
Chinese coast guard and maritime militia work for PLAN. PLAN ultimate aim as according to SG menhan is to
1)wrestle territory from others
2)established sea control to create their own Monroe doctrine and force finlanization of all 1st island chain nation.
Force structure are design as assurance again threat perceptions and your force structure proposal unfortunately missed the threat perceptions by a light-year.
Chinese ultimate goal for everyone not name Taiwan if finlanization through sea control NOT go around pulling a D-Day. The Chinese go around telling everyone they wanted the sea and here you are going around proposing to centralized force on land.
Not to mention If the Chinese manage to pull a sea control then we are not the ONLY one facing finlanization threat, everyone else in the region also face the same dilemma.
If anything your force structure proposal is just handing the Chinese what they truly wanted on a silver platter since they wanted everyone to abandoned multilateralism and adopted finlanization while you go around praising finlanization and unilateralism.
” Technically according to naval group, our gowind is the original gowind as we had pay for the R&D. But since we owned the blueprint they just changed enough so they are able to offered *smaller gowind at even higher level of complexity to others at 70% of our cost ”
That is absolutely not correct. Lean more about our defence history.
The orignal design is the GOWIND 2500. That is what we choose originally (instead of uparmed Kedah and SIGMA corvette). we modify it to become GOWIND 3100 when the original budget for SGPV corvette was increased to become a frigate after the original Lekiu Batch 2 aka F2000 batch 2 was cancelled.
“our gowind is the original gowind so they are able to offered *smaller gowind”
What nonsense is this. Our LCS is design 3100 which is an enlarged existing design 2500 used for Egypt El Fatehs that started building much earlier. Ours is derived from theirs not the other way round.
“not because of the amount of steel but rather because itβs a full fledged surface combatants.”
Yes and no. Yes their electronics & fully fit out are more costlier but so as the engineering work put to make a larger vessel (160 mtr). Its not because of steel, never said it was, its the engineering work & highly paid consultants.
“go around ordering a smaller ship from PT PAL then it would be more expensive”
Theres no redesigning for smaller ship. Makassar class/ Tarlac class/ UMS Moattama is around the same size that were aiming for. Just depends which config and which shipyard we want it from. Its possible we might tweak it if die die to fit within 120mtr length.
“none surface combatants capable LPD.”
As per 15to5 Evolved graphics, MRSS will only have point defence missiles &/or CIWS. So will still need an escort (or two) for war operations. No need speculate, look at the horses mouth evidence. Its likely will have some AESA radar paired with K-SAM (from LMS2) and with navy-go-to DS30M RWS mounts as quasi CIWS role.
“Chinese ultimate goal for everyone not name Taiwan”
China is also building up a massive amphib fleet for Taiwan invasion, however if such strategy is unfeasible, their main tactic is to militarily isolate and blockade Taiwan isle and without shooting, pressure Taiwan Govt to wilt & surrender once they know USA wont come in guns blazing to rescue them like John Wayne. They have dry run this last year and just recently early this month by nearly total blockading the island maritime waters & airspace.
” If anything your force structure proposal is just handing the Chinese what they truly wanted on a silver platter ”
LoL!
My plan has more Submarines, more Frigates, tons of missile armed LMS-X than any TLDM original plans by 2040, all within the similar level of budget.
Yes go and fight the chinese navy with the MRSS instead of more submarines…
Hulu “That is absolutely not correct. Lean more about our defence history.”
Joe “What nonsense is this. Our LCS is design 3100 which is an enlarged existing design 2500 used for Egypt El Fatehs that started building much earlier. Ours is derived from theirs not the other way round.”
You both are free to correct the naval news interview with naval group on YT when they says that the LCS is the original gowind and how you recollection of events are actually more correct then what the actual representative of said company said.
Joe “As per 15to5 Evolved graphics, MRSS will only have point defence missiles &/or CIWS”
Point defense can be achieved by 2 way. One is to get something self contained like the sea ram which you can just fit into any ship of opportunities . The other is to integrate it into the ship CMS.
As of it, it’s likely the UAE Makassar is rocking a Leonardo Kronos Naval radar and ATHENA C CMS. Thus nothing stopping PT PAL from fitting an area defense missile on the UAE Makassar. Just like turkeye manage to fit Hisar-o and K-SAM on the originally fit only with RIM116 ADA.
Hulu “My plan has more Submarines, more Frigates, tons of missile armed LMS-X than any TLDM original plans by 2040, all within the similar level of budget.”
Your so called LMS-X is nothing more than a civilian spec patrol boat with container on it. Hardly capable of independence operation and can only follow the ada and gowind around. Heck it doesn’t even have the sea keeping capabilities to follow the ada and gowind into the EEZ. What it achieved is spending as much or more money then modernizing the jebat and kedah while having 30% of the ship needed to have constant surveillance on all our EEZ.
While Your so called frigate is basically just the type 31. A ship thats only have CAMM. Do you really think you can pay type 31 price and get a MRCV instead? If anything its not more capable then the ada is just with a lot more leg for a lot more money.
Not forgotten is your paper subs with paper AIP and paper li-iOn battery. Basically you just sacrifice a whole lot of target recognitions capabilities to gold plate a subs despite the fact such subs with AIP and Li-Ion battery already exist from another manufacturer and no gold plating needed.
This don’t include you taking your sweet time landing on the beach with RoRO as you can’t secure the beach without the LPD and and trying to defuse mine by wishing the enemies won’t react. If they did. Then no mines defusing.
“You both are free to correct the naval news interview with naval group”
A lot of times these PR folks have no idea what their saying. I say look at historical context. El Fatehs came before LCS was even a proposal. If Design 3100 was already available there wasnt necessary for BNS to redesign a design that existed! Then all these about BNS difficulties and LCS not yet complete due to design not yet completely vetted by NAVAL is all BS! Nope the historical evidence doesnt support your theory.
Darthzaft can spew lies, but i cannot counter those lies.
Nice.
@joe
“One such the Spanish LCM-1E’
Thank you joe for pointing out on the LCM-1E, but as usual someone will still give 101 reason why that wont works, or in some cases, RoRo can carry on the deck. Well just go charter a RoRo when you need one i guess.
@Hulubalang
“same money we spent on 4x 700ton LMS68.” “For just a few more million (USD68.8 mil)”
True, but also for usd70+ miilion we could get 90meter Raja Haji Fisabilillah OPV from indonesia that could carry 8x Atmaca, though for SAM maybe only SHORADS like Mistral Tetral/Sadral is the most that could be mount.
@Zaft
“the type 31. A ship thats only have CAMM”
UK already said they willl put Mk41 VLS on to Type31 so for sure they can use more than just CAMM, plus there is also CAMM-ER and later CAMM-MR
@Hulu
“Yes go and fight the chinese navy with the MRSS instead of more submarines⦔
Since when has TLDM objectives been about taking on PLAN mano a mano? Should TDM stock up thousands of MBT in anticipation of massive PLA land invasion coming from Songkla & Patani (effectively negating your phalanx of long range AShM)? or TUDM buying hundreds of 5th Gen ‘Western’ fighters to counter PLAN CBG loaded with 5th Gen J-35?
@Luqman
“Well just go charter a RoRo when you need one i guess.”
A key fact that escapes Hulu is that navies with RORO in their service, already have a main force of amphib capable LPDs/AAS. ROROS in their use are meant to supplement, not to replace, their main logistic force.
“UK already said they willl put Mk41 VLS”
Type31 was meant to be an economical fighting ship, meaning design & built to a low budget hence its one of those rare occasions a Western boat is onset FFBNW (something were familiar with), so things like guns & torps will be reused from retiring ships, and VLS will be added later (when the beancounters not looking over their supplementary budgets).
Which is why i disagreed Hulu the true cost of Type31 and whether we can truly afford it. Its like buying a Merc/BMW without radio & AC & spare tyre & omitting all seats except for driver. Yeah you will get that dream car but to make it habitable you need to spend loads more money, money which you may find out later you dont have. So then what you ended up with is a half made car with overglorified badge. Same if we want to get Type31, will be an overpriced and basically a larger Kedahs OPV redux with doubts we will eventually afford to fully arm them.
” Which is why i disagreed Hulu the true cost of Type31 and whether we can truly afford it ”
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GmZDvvhaUAAjR7M?format=jpg&name=4096×4096
Look at my plan very carefully. A big reason why i put the cost of to get ARROWHEAD140 as USD500 million per ship, not just USD300+ million like the Royal Navy…
It is to be had after 2031, when all of the GOWINDs are completed. Lets look at how good the Turkiye/korean stuff is on the STM Turkiye Corvette, and decide the fitout of the ARROWHEAD140 later.
TNI-AL ARROWHEAD140 fitout is also mainly turkiye stuff, so that is another benchmark we can use.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GjbxMWcbYAEpz-X.jpg