PETALING JAYA: IT appears Tuesday that India has selected Dassault Rafale for its MMRCA programme.
Based on the news report it also appear that the Rafale was cheaper than Typhoon in this instance. It also appear that India were looking at the life cycle cost in choosing the French plane.
So in the end having sold the Mirage 2000H (with the weapons) had placed Dassault on the front line. That said at least one commentator (Steve Trimble) had said it may not be the final say on the matter.
How is this going to effect our own MRCA programme? I have no idea, at the moment. It will changed the dynamics of course. However, if negotiations between Dassault and India did not reached the conclusion by April next year, it will not much impact here. The state of the Malaysian economy will be the final arbiter of course and the Government of the Day (with the GE in mind).
Statement from BAE Systems
INDIA MMRCA COMPETITION
BAE Systems notes that Eurofighter Typhoon has not been assessed as the lowest-priced compliant bidder (L1) by the Indian Ministry of Defence at this stage of the tendering process for the supply of its new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).
Our partner Cassidian submitted an attractive and competitive proposal to supply Eurofighter Typhoon, the world’s most modern Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircrat available today.
We believe Eurofighter Typhoon offered the best military, industrial and economic solution for India.
We will continue to support the Indian customer and its evaluation process and work with our European partner companies and their respective governments to seek to understand the basis of today’s announcement.
– Malaysian Defence
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View Comments (37)
So India has selected the Rafale over the Typhoon. So what will Malaysia's decision be?. Both the Rafale and the Typhoon are grossly expensive for us. With our national debt at the borderline of 54%(rounded up) it will breach the legal level set by laws of 55% very soon if not already exceeded/
increase our national debt, they need to pass amendments to the law so that we can continue to borrow more to buy the planes now.
The Gripen and the Super hornets are not so bad but bad all the same as it still requires the country to borrow money to buy them .Better defence or better management of the economy?
This is the question to answer. We cannot have both.
Having a better managed economy is also an important aspect of national defence too and not just physical tanks and planes.
My 2 cents
How about just do nothing... for the time being. If government acts like most sensible people, it will try to minimize/eliminate debt first before getting some more, with something that has to be sacrificed. Isn't that what we ordinary people do? (or not, considering the number of bankrupt youngsters these days :( )
Choose two, sell others. Either russki + swedes or gringo + swedes, or current+swedes and be done with it. Other than training aircraft, sell them off. Or sell everything & start over.. heheh
I'll believe it when I actually see a Rafale flying in IAF colors. Although unlikely at this stage (the IAF desperately needs the aircraft) a lot could happen over the next year before the contracts are finalized.
Now that the Typhoon is out, I wonder how aggressive Eurofighter will get in its efforts to win other fighter contests. Perhaps they will start spraying some of the 'perfume' that Dave Malaysia has been talking about. Considering the history of the decision-makers in the government, one must consider that once they succumb to the effects of the 'perfume', it is possible that the RMAF will get Typhoons. Although it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, no sense seems to be the norm, rather than the exception when it comes to defence procurements.
cheekucai,
I've advocated similar ideas before: retire, sell, or trade off some of the inventory. IMO, this is what I would do in the interim:
MiG-29s - Sell or trade. If we can get even 6 more Su-30MKMs from the Russians, we'd be doing good.
Su-30MKMs - Upgrade as much as funds allow. Despite my dislike for the aircraft, they are the 'backbone' of the fighter force at the moment.
Hornets - Upgrade as much as funds allow. Keep them flying!
F-5s - Retire, sell or trade. Not of much use as a fighter anymore, only for adversary and pilot training.
Hawks - Reserve. Put them all into a reserve/training squadron. Let attrition dwindle their numbers until they are no longer of use.
MB-339s - Augment with a purchase of former RNZAF MB-339Cs.
PC-7s - Retain for primary flight training.
A400Ms - If it is possible, I would cancel the order. Huge waste of money!
C-130s - Overhaul/upgrade and if possible augment with the purchase and overhaul/upgrade of used C-130s.
CN-235s - Retain in service.
and so on and so on...
When I get a little more time I'll submit for closer scrutiny what I would advocate for a long-term plan for the RMAF...
To improve the national debt there are few suggestions:
1) Improve the inefficiency outflow, which some estimated around 20% per year of budget or around RM40 billion a year (inclusive of bribe)
2) without increasing tax, improve tax and custom collection efficiency. i dont have figures for other country but quite amazing for a RM800 billion GDP our custom collection only RM30 billion, less than 5%
3) re look at subsidy distribution
But overall, personally i believe our recent defense purchases are just way too expensive to be justified.
Getting very off-topic here.
1. Does anyone know what is the official designation of the Eickhorn bayonet bought for our M-4s?
2. Anyone know if the AUG bayonets in use by us were made by Steyr or another company?
3. Have heard that the Hughes HDR radar bought for MADGE, at Butterworth, was retired some yyears ago and replaced by a Alenia radar. Heard anything Marhalim?
4.Any confirmation about a 2nd Thales Raytheon Groundmaster radar bought?
FareedLHS,
We can only retire our RF-5Es if and when the RMAF gets a dedicated recce pod for either it's Hornets or whatever fighter is bought in the future. Up to the 90's the F-5Es were used by pilots for maintaining flight hours and as ''aggressors'', now I think they are only used as escorts for the RF-5Es, but will be retired when a new fighter enters service. The PC-7 Mk1s are getting old and will be retired as soon as the RMAF only gets funds to add to the 18 Mk2s already bought [2 already written off?].
I think we now have proof that the Rafale is a cheaper bird in every sence than Eurofighhter. India took into account not only the flyaway cost of the plane, but its support, maintenence cost over 6000 Flight hours, etc2, and still found it to be cheaper than EF2000. If the flyaway cost of the rafale is cheaper than the Ef2000 and its maintenence was cheap as well, it only goes to show what a nightmare Malaysia would face if we accept the offer for the used 20 EF2000 that Eurofighter is offering. Whatever we gain in the number of planes, will be recouped by maintenence cost. :) Also i feel we should just sell the migs, and get more MKM2 standard and upgrade the rest of the MKM to MKM2. Get rid of the hawk\'s and replace the F5\'s with unmanned drones, which i belive should be cheaper to maintain than those F5\'s. I also wonder what is the miantenence cost of the Hawk\'s?
congrats to India & IAF..
15 Factors for the Dassault Rafale wins MMRCA
1.IAF's love for Mirrage 2000 which is a very potent platform.
2.Infrastructure created for over 100 mirages in the 80's can be used now.
3.Upgrade of Mirrage 2000 to Mirrage 2000-5 MK2 standard which will be a similarity with Rafale
4. The 1 billion dollar invested in MICA missile.
5.Dassault Rafale was build from ground up tp be a omirole or multirole platform which the IAF wants
6.SPECTRA + AESA in 2012 (Typhoons AESA 2015) + AASM (proved in Libya)
7.Dual sit version useful for training and more useful for ground attack(twin seater of typhoon is only a trainer without any advantage)
8.Dassault Rafale is cheaper than typhoon.
9.French a reliable supplier not sanctioning india after 1998.
10.All components from one country no dealing with 4 countries.
11.Dassault Rafale has almost all french components while Typhoon has some american components susceptible to sanctions.
12.Full transfer of technology including source code.
13.Today in European crisis France can give us more political leverage than UK+Germany,italy and spain are in deep crisis.
14.Marine version present which makes it attractive for Indian Navy.
15.Hidden deals in STRATEGIC , ECONOMICAL and IINDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT(KAVERI,MCA,SSN,SSBN etc) arena.
Engine and payload comparison between Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon
Dassault Rafale
Empty weight: 9,500 kg
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,000 lb) internal
Payload:9,500 kg
Thrust/weight: 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile)
Eurofighter Typhoon
Empty weight: 11,150 kg
Loaded weight: 16,000 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 23,500 kg
Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,000 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 89 kN (20,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) internal
Thrust/weight: 1.15(clean)
Payload:7,500 kg
so you can see a TOW of Dassault Rafale 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) is much better than 1.15 (clean ) of Eurofighter Typhoon
Dassault Rafale is
1.Lighter(so a 75.62 kN engine is enough) but have more Max. takeoff weight than Typhoon.
2.Carry more fuel.
3.Carry more payload
4. Dassault Rafale has a 30mm gun as to 27 mm of Eurofighter Typhoon.
next Rafale insignia
TUDM
Meanwhile in Russia...
http://link.ft.com/r/4RNQTT/C4N20M/IYRR5L/HYR1VP/HYLTCZ/UP/t?a1=2012&a2=2&a3=1
Reply
Your article is a paid link. If you have access to it, can you please copy and paste it here in the commencts section?
zamyra,
Many of your assertions regarding the Rafale are simply incorrect.
- The Mirage 2000 is a completely different aircraft. Whatever infrastructure, training, etc. that the IAF has invested in the Mirage 2000 will not be of much use for the Rafale. They are completely different aircraft.
- The Rafale is not necessarily 'cheaper' than the Typhoon. Pricing aircraft depends a lot on how the measuring is done and who does it. Depending on what is emphasized in the analysis, almost anyone can manipulate the numbers to argue that one aircraft is 'cheaper' than another. Lastly, keep in mind that Dassault's offer to India was aggressively backed by France. What was offered to India will definitely not be repeated. Especially when one considers that India is buying 126+ aircraft, it is highly unlikely that a buyer of 18 or so aircraft would get an exceptional deal.
- The Rafale sources parts and pieces from throughout the world. While you may argue that the French provide the complete systems for the aircraft (engines, avionics, etc.), those systems are made up of thousands of smaller parts produced throughout the world (including the US). That is why regardless of who the winner was, the Indians were insisting on building the aircraft locally and producing a lot of their own parts to guard against any disruption in parts and service.
- You wrongly group the UK and Germany into the European crisis. Both of these countries are actually the only ones in Europe that are doing well! France is not immune to the financial woes of Greece, Italy, Spain, et al. France is a second-rate power with delusions of grandeur. They got stomped on in both World Wars and every post-colonial conflict. If I was looking for strength, I wouldn't look to Paris.
- Your comparison of Rafale to Typhoon is subjective. There are thousands of variables that go into analyzing an aircraft. You highlight some supposed 'advantages' for the Rafale, based on your own analysis and benchmarks. A Typhoon fan could just as easily do the reverse.
- If I was a betting man, I wouldn't put a cent on seeing the Rafale in TUDM colors.
Dear Fareed,
yes I agree.
With our national debt almost hitting the legal limit, it would really be hard pressed to find that one cent for any new purchases.
If only purchases can go back to the days of the Emergency, then will we be able to get something really good and useful.