KUALA LUMPUR: What costs only RM400 million?. One hundred rounds of the latest version of the Amraams together with parts, spares and associated logistical equipment. Since money for the RMK10 is tight, I believe the best solution for the Armed Forces at the moment is to purchase war stocks and since we had only purchased 20 Amraams before, now its the best time to stock up on these missiles. We should also reserved another RM600 million or so to purchase additional Sidewinders and Harpoons at the same time. As for the Stingers and Avenger combo, maybe we should be looking at smaller numbers, however.
Further reading.
Chile � AIM-120C-7 AMRAAM Missiles
WASHINGTON, November 12, 2009 � The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Nov. 10 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Chile of 100 AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles and associated parts, equipment and logistical support worth approximately $145 million.
Chile � AVENGER Fire Units/STINGER Missiles
WASHINGTON, November 12, 2009 � The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Nov. 10 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Chile of 36 AVENGER Fire Units, 378 STINGER-Reprogrammable Micro-Processor (RMP) Block 1 Anti-Aircraft missiles, 12 STINGER Block 1 Buy-to-Fly missiles and associated parts, equipment and logistical support worth approximately $455 million.
–Malaysian Defence
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The AMRAAM and the R-77 BVRM is equally equivalent to each other and Malaysia has many stock on the R-77. And I wonder if the US govt would sell AMRAAM to Malaysia in a high quantity as what we already know, the Singaporean will oppose to this plan.
Marhalim: I also thought they got the R77 but when I met some people recently I am not too sure anymore. I dont think Singapore will oppose it but it will be the US govt that may not be willing to sell so many, but I make the suggestion as a benchmark price. 50 live Amraam plus 20 training ones would be good enough for the Hornet fleet unless we buy another squadron of Amraam-compatible MRCA, then we of course we need to reload….
i had seen a pics of the missiles along with other armaments of the SU-30MKM in Gong Kedak during RMAF anniversary dah last year. The Su-30mkm was line up along with it’s armaments including R77, R73, R27, Kh-31 (anti-ship and anti-radar variants), and other smart bombs. Lost the pics since my PC caught Virus…..
Marhalim: Are you sure its the R77 or AA-12 or the AA-10? During the open day at Subang last year, they also displayed the other missiles but not the AA-12. Only the AA-10 was displayed….
Yeah, i’m pretty sure it’s the R77. It got a very distinct tail shape which open during flight. So i’m very positive it is….and i also got this, according to stockholm international peace research institute:
RMAF MISSILES PURCHASE FROM RUSSIA 2003-2007#
1. R-77 – 100 FOR SU-30
2. R-73 – 170 FOR MIG-29 & SU-30
3. Kh-31A1/AS 17 – 80 FOR SU-30MKM
4. R27 – 100 FOR MIG-29 & SU-30
do not know, how reliable the institute source is…..
Marhalim: I know about the SIPRI, I have quoted it before but I got the confirmation from…… official. He should know better than all of us combined. Sorry I cannot mentioned the name but lets just say that without him, our Russian jets will not ,,,,,,,
Err again i dont believe we have the R77 but then again…However additional AMRAAM would be good. I mean why not, plus as we are upgrading the hawk, theoretically the hawk radar could fire the AMRAAM. nah singapore dont need to worry about, why should they, uncle SAM and the union jack got their back all the way. Look at the North and our Nusantara cousin, that will be a different matter altogether
I have met some officers from TD who boasted to have seen surface to surface missiles that is being kept underground in Gemas Camp, always pointing south. The point is, some claims cannot be always verified when security matters plus general knowledge of some officers are very much in doubt. But its a very well intended and wise idea to purchase additional AMRAMMs as 20 odd missiles in stock are too little. If the yankees decline, we could always source from Europe e.g. IRIS-T
Marhalim: I believe the IRIS T is a short range missile, while the MBDA claimed the Meteor is an Amraam equivalent, I am not sure it has been integrated on the Hornet….
As i am still recovering from Monday blues, this website seems to be the only one that make sense at this moment…anyway I was wondering for 36 units of avenger plus related equipments 455 million usd or about RM1.3 billion, is not it expensive for a VSHORAD system that can only sh0ot at max slant range of 5km in best case scenario? Though our previous choice of Jernas also not that far away from that price, at least it almost double the slant range (albeit not as mobile). Though cant verify my sources (internet only) The Pantsir with a slant range of 10km and with AA Gun, cost about USD15 million a unit while the Chinese copy of Crotale NG, FH90, with TRI seeker option IR, TV and SARH and 15 km slant range would cost even lesser than that. Al though cost is not the make or break factor, but arent we have adequate Vshorad system already straburst,FN6, Anza and SA-16 complemented by Jernas and array of short range radar . I believe we should expand to E-Shorad (range 6-20km) for that amount of money.
Marhalim: Yes perhaps its more expensive than the rest of the competitors but its mobile and networked together. They are also buying the radars, which is part of another package,
The Armed Forces is looking for a new Vshorads in the RMK10 but I doubt they have the money to include the purchase this time. The Jernas? What can I say, its looks nice on paper……The Starbust I believe will be time expired soon as does the Anzas…
Western medium range SAMS are just too expensive for our budget while the Russian ones (I like the S300/S400) remained too Russian for our Western-oriented AD system…
Are we allowed to keep the AIM120Cs in-country if we choose to buy?
Sorry for going off topic but i got to ask u this Marhalim, are there any truth about our clueless Defence Minister’s plan to buy 6×6 APC from Indon’s PINDAD? It is widely reported in Indon’s website and blogs but no news of such in local front. Does anyone know?
Marhalim: I have hear about the rumours. Its mostly due to the urgent requirement for a new APC for the Lebanon contingent. As I mentioned in my posting on the VABs, it will most probably be from French Army stocks. It is cheaper to ship them from France to Lebanon. There are others of course who say that after the first batch are ordered from the France, a second batch of the same APC will also be purchased, which some regarded as us buying the Pindads of course. But since the Army requirements are 8X8 APCs, I am regarding this as rumours only.
Yes. The US will allow us to keep the Amraams, I just hope we buy enough so we can fire one once in a while…..
Ya I’ve heard about this before, but then the there will be many things to be checked before any procurement to be made between the PINDAD and Malaysian Govt.
For me, I don’t see any problem with the Condor and it still can serve for the country. It’s only used for peacekeeping mission. So from the money we save we can buy maybe many weapon suite for the NGPVs or upgrading our current air defense system.
Regarding the AMRAAM, I don’t see any need for more AMRAAM at this time with most of our aircraft inventory is dominated by the RUSSIAN-made fighter aircraft only the Hornet and the Hawk has the capability to launch the AMRAAM. As for the Russian-made fighter, they already have the AMRAAM equivalent missile that’s BVR-77 in their inventory. So no problem for this one. I think the most crucial part is for the navy. Ranging from the Inderapura replacement to the weapons suite for the NGPVs. I do think that the govt should consider the BrahMos missile for used by the armed forces.
For the idea of buying armament from Indon, this will never be put into consideration as what we know those extremist will creatively making story of this matter and I as a Malaysian, I would oppose to this very bad idea. No more weapons from Indon. ya i know that, some will say that “how about the CN-235”, and my answer is, “that’s is the story of the past”. Very obvious and clear isn’t.
Syameer, we can still buy the CN-235 but from EADS CASA (as turkey and alot of other countries), and not from Indonesia.
How much actually a squadron of fighters basically made of Marhalim? the minimum numbers that is….
Marhalim: It depends on the user. The Hornet squadron has only 8 aircraft while the Sukhoi one is 18 and the Mig has two squadron for 16 planes….Usually a fighter sqdn is made of 12 aircraft but then it also depend on how the accountants are willing to pay for the CO/XO/Engineering Off/Admin off and such. Technically the Sukhoi squadron can be divided into two sqdn but then they have to pay for two COs and etc….
syameer, just out of curiosity, why do you propse the Brahmos, because of its specs or range? By the way, even by instaling Brahmos on the Kedah class, OTHT by another platform is still nedeed to fully exploit its range.
Dear Azlan,
Yes I propose the Brahmos for it’s specs and not the range. As for the range, Harpoon has a greater range at around 45 km more then the Brahmos. The speed is the main factor here. So far, it’s the world fastest cruise missile available on the market and with the development of the new Hypersonic version. it will be around Mach 4 and is no match to any other missile in the world. But then, the range-to-price ratio is incomparable to the Tomahawk as the Brahmos cost appx USD 200,000 more than the tomahawk.
The main reason here is, India and Russia them self is keen to supply this missile to Malaysia and the missile has been confirmed that it can be integrated into the Kedah-class NGPVs without any major problem and same goes to the MKMs also. So, I think the govt should put the BrahMos into consideration for the NGPVs weapons suite.
Another things, Marhalim what do u have to say about the attending KDX-2 destroyer of the South Korean Navy in this upcming LIMA 09. Is it will be the possible contender for the next LEKIU-Batch 2 program? As for the Dokdo, this is the 2nd time it’s here trying to win the govt heart to buy it.
Marhalim: I have no idea what ROKN ship will be at Lima 09. Maybe the KDX will come, I dont know. Kementah seems to warm up to the ROKN, does it mean that it will replace the Bae Systems design? That will depend on how much money we are willing to invest, I believe its better to buy their new patrol boat…
Syameer,
Are u sure ship-launched Harpoon has a greater range compared to Brahmos? Please do the homework first, and kindly state which Harpoon version that has such range. There has never been any testing or certification procedures done so far, to validate claims that Brahmos can be integrated into NGPV-class structurally. Even if they can squeeze the missile onboard the ship, there are plenty other integration issues that need to be tackled first, before one can truly say that the Brahmos is indeed ‘compatible to be retrofitted’ onboard existing Meko-design NGPVs. There are clear differences between claims and actual capabilities.
Agree with Azlan on his point, it wouldn’t be economical in financial & operational senses to install Brahmos onboard the NGPVs.
Integrating the Brahmos on the MKM’s is more problematic. It involves sending the MKMs back to Irkut for structural modifications to accomodate the Brahmos. As for the Kedah class, I’m not sure how many Brahmos launchers it can take. There’s only space for a RAM or an 8 cell VLS. Unless I’m mistaken, the Harpoon does not have a greater range than the Brahmos.
Marhalim: I am told that the dockyard have all the technical details to add more modules to new ships so they could add more weaoon systems as specifiied by the RMN. However I believe integrating the Brahmos will be more problematic to the PVs than the MKM. For starters the ship does not have enough decks to install a VLS system so they have install the Russian style missile launchers on either at the bow or midship. Furthermore, they have to install a new console into the ship’s command centre. It is an iffy project. If we really want the Brahmos, as I mentioned before it is easier to get land-based version, the only thing we need to do is to install a communication systems that will link the launchers to the MAF command and control structure and the TELs.
TQ Marhalim, err, till today i can’t figure it out, do our Scorpenes fitted with the AIP Mesma system?
Bout the BrahMos SSM, i can understand Syameer excitement to fitted the NGPV with those missile, simply BrahMos would gives us an edge, but it just did’nt match the platform…NGPV is only 16++tonne ship, lightweight surely for a heavyweight missile! (not to mention the cost and many more factor)
Have anyone think about NSM instead? at 410kg, it looks more appropriate plus it also could be carried by our Lynxs…NSM is also chosen to be carried in future by the F 35 JSF, the missile technologically, obviously not that bad afterall…just my humble opinion though…
Marhalim: NO AIP on the Scorpene. I was told that the could be fitted in the sub’s in mid-life up-date. There is no need to change to NSM or other missiles, the new Exocet Block III will be good enough, and we can use the older launchers..
Perhaps installing Russian style launchers like the ones used for the Sunburns are the only way.
Even then I don’t think its possible on the first 6 Kedahs due to size restrictions. Even then, installing such launchers would play havoc with the Kedah’s RCS. Integration with the COSYS is another issue, plus the fact that at the moment with software upgrades, the Cosys is only capable of low intensity scenarios.Another thing to bear in mind is that the Indians still have no access to the seeker and engine technology used on the Brahmos, which is kept by the Russians. The Indians were very annoyed 2 years ago, when their ‘partner’ in the Brahmos program tried to sell the Yakhont to the TNI-AL.
It will take about 6 months for the structural modifications to be done on the first batch of IAF MKI’s at Irkut.For the IAF its not a problem as they have a large fighter fleet. For the RMAF however its a no go as not only is its fighter fleet small, the MKM squadron is only expected to be combat ready in 2011 minimum.
Agreed with Marhalim, no need to add additional missile list to the ever ready diverse selection. Block 3 exocet or even the lates ottomat would do fine as both predecessors are used in RMN.
The NGPV should remain for low intensity conflict though as i doubt we will face any technological advance navy as our adversary. Most likely, it is most suitable to be used to patrol and handle issues with our nusantara cousin with regards to sea border dispute
Most appropriately, yes we should have stick with the Exocet Mk3, just like you says Marhalim…what about the CIWS package? personally i like the combo of all french hardware : Exocet Mk3 + MICA VLS, but the russian Kashtan M also looks good…combination of 2 weapons type (SAM + AAG) in a single package sounds effecient, eliminates the current probable combo Mauser 30mm + SeaRAM?….cutting cost, space among others….Kashtan M is also a complete system of sensors and effectors, making it fully autonomous…what do think Marhalim?
Marhalim: Some may think I am against Russian products but integrating the Kashtan onto our PV with its Western CIC will be problematic. It is easier to install the Rheimentall MLG27 or the 35mm Millenium cannon would be very much easier…
30mm gun on the PV is not a Mauser gun but Otobreda’s ….The SeaRAM is also much cheaper it just a plug and play module. The Block II missile has anti-surface role added to it…
Just thinking out loud, they could build up to 4 Marikh class OPV for a RM 1billion. Armed with one 40mm cannon, 2 30 mm cannon and 2-4 .5 calibre, local shipyards could do it. It could be used to replace some of the keris class currently used.
Please confirm., there were rumours that the MICA VL were offered as part of the kasturi SLEP but was rejected as it cost more than USD100 millon per system. Is there an aota of truth in it?
Marhalim: I was told that a SAM was offered but it was rejected to cost issues. I was not inform the type of missile but I doubt it was the MICA. As I had mentioned before the Kasturi SLEP should have been done to validate the weapon and systems fit for the NGPV so we would have find out the problems before hand but I guessed they wanted to take the long road….
TQ for the infos, guess we should choose the SeaRAM lah, is there any possibility that we might install the Integrated Electric Propulsion System to our current and future fleet? I strongly believe that IEPS is the choice of future propulsion system for the advance navy, but i dont have any clues about the cost of the system..
Marhalim: The RMN is very conservative when it comes to powerplant, my believe is that they will remain a full diesel navy until at least 2030……..