Happy Malaysia Day and Armed Forces Day

PETALING JAYA: Lest we forget. Apart from Malaysia Day, Sept 16 is also the Armed Forces Day.

–Malaysian Defence

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29 Responses to "Happy Malaysia Day and Armed Forces Day"

abihurairah says:

September 15, 2012 at 10:48 pm

any news on our mrca program ???

Reply
Heard somethings but still checking them out
azroy Iskandar says:

September 16, 2012 at 12:54 pm

No the answer always no budget from the civil govt.Defense is last choice…PRU money need to dist for project and so on..We always wasted money by spending for wrong things like PLKN suppose to be National Reserve. If billion spending for PLKN better generate new Division of Marine Corp to protect our water>>>
nimitz says:

September 16, 2012 at 3:31 pm

I wish for ATM in the future have a 5-star Panglima who is a native of Sarawak/Sabah/Labuan.
loreng says:

September 16, 2012 at 8:42 pm

nitmiz,the 5 star rank is a Field Marshall, only the King as the Commander-in-Chief of the Malaysian Armed Forces holds that rank.
Not to worry 2 to 3 star General possible as there is currently a Brigadier General (one star General) in the Renjer Regiment who is from Sarawak.

Reply
The highest ranking in uniform (correct me if I am wrong) from East Malaysia is the Federal CID chief Datuk Bakri Zinin, who is a Commissioner with a 3-star (equivalent to a Lt General in the military) . Only the IGP has four star in PDRM.
At least one air force two star is from Sarawak. If everything goes to plan, he will be the chief one day. Though with the new 60 year old retirement ruling, it may not happened despite the all the plans….
... says:

September 16, 2012 at 10:11 pm

MRCA?

Lets see…

There is an orphaned new fighter the F-60/J-31. By the looks of it, the fighter is not an official development for the PLAAF, and is a private R&D, similar to the JF-17. It is rumoured to continue to be developed in case there is an export buyer interested. If the price is right, it looks interesting…

http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/011333of5ssllgfox3f4xf.jpg

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=208240&d=1347793456

http://i.imgur.com/Kyy60.jpg
FareedLHS says:

September 17, 2012 at 9:46 am

Any word on the DPN 2012?

Reply
DPN 2012? Dasar Pertahanan Negara 2012?
kamal says:

September 17, 2012 at 10:18 am

MRCA? at this juncture IMHO it still hard to get by 2015 due to budget constraints and bulk of the armed forces budget already tied to 4 main items= 12 EC725 RM1.6 b, 4 A400 M RM4 b, 257 AV8 RM8 b and 6 LCS RM9 b. But if it ever get the go ahead, IMHO due to commonality factor, maturity of technology and combat experience F18 SH would be my favourite with additional SU 30 will come far 2nd
kamal says:

September 17, 2012 at 4:39 pm

Marhalim do you know what is the specs of the two training vessels built by NGV tech for RMN that cost almost RM300 mil for both?

Reply
Not much, apart from its going to be 75m long and to be armed with guns only.
loreng says:

September 17, 2012 at 9:53 pm

Kamal, thanks for itemising the 4 mega projects which give a total sum of RM22.6 billion.
Except for the EC725, the rest are IMO controversial.
Are they really critical to our military preparedness?
Can we really afford them?Why spend RM4 billion on the A400M just to acquire strategic transport capability for peace-keeping operations.
We have the C130s and MAS to support the MAF if there is an urgent requirement to airlift troops to far-distant lands.
Was it a ‘wahyu project’ when Abdullah Badawi was the Prime Minister?IMO the RM4 billion spent on the 4xA400M could have been used to improve our combat and logistic shortcomings such as providing enough combat vehicles for combat units (Infantry, Artillery and Engineers Corps).
Marhalim,why don’t you conduct a study on the situation of combat vehicles in those Corps if you are really concern about the state of military preparedness.
As for the LCS and AV8x8 enough has been written about the 2 projects which are very expensive and above the normal market price.For example the Thai Army bought AV8x8 from Ukraine very cheaply (about RM10 million per unit) and about RM20 million per unit if you opt for the Western-made AV8x8, whereas DEFTECH-FNSS AV8x8 I think is about RM30 million plus per unit!

Reply
Please see my previous posting on all the above subjects.
The A400M deal was signed during Dr M time.
The state of the Armed Forces preparedness is a national security issue.
Unless someone (really high ranking) talked about it due to various reasons I am content to let it be for obvious reasons, its not about that I do not care.
That’s why you see I am writing more about new contracts, random statements and procurement decisions rather than about stuff already in service as this things are in the public domain.
Even writing about contracts, statements and procurement decisions has got some people hot under their panties what do you think if I start writing about preparedness?
Mustaffa says:

September 17, 2012 at 10:09 pm

by retiring the 10 migs and replacing them with a squadron of 18 new MRCAs,there is no significant increase in air power.assuming its 100% state of readiness at all time.we need more MRCAs squadrons and these needs money.Money that comes hard these days.not to mention other pressing needs such as transport ship,Medium range SAMs,AWECS and arming the NGPVs with missiles.

Reply
Actually the actual requirement is 36 aircraft but due to money, or to be precise, the lack of it, it was reduced 18, in the hope the other 18 will come in later.
FareedLHS says:

September 17, 2012 at 11:30 pm

Yes. Dasar Pertahanan Negara 2012.

On another note…

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-new-fighter-aircraft-emerges-in-china-376526/

With the emergence of stealth aircraft in the Southeast Asia region, the RMAF needs to rapidly ramp up its capabilities or risk becoming an irrelevant force.

Reply
I have not heard anything about the DPN 2012.
On stealth aircraft, I have made the position clear in many postings ago that I believed that we should postpone the MRCA to see what is available within the next five years so we won’t be caught with a redundant fighter fleet by 2020 and plus the economy going hay-wire reducing a procurement ringgit. However, only two stealth fighters are an option for us, the F35 and the PAK-FA. I know China got the J-20 but unless our relationship gets better and they actually produced something comparable to the F35 or PAK-FA and its associated logistics and ordnance package, I am of the opinion that the route is a dead end.
nimitz says:

September 18, 2012 at 4:56 am

Loreng, Marhalim thanks for the update on the Panglima stuff. IMO preparedness we can’t discus it much due to the sensitive nature of our military preparedness (hell, no nation will acknowledge publicly at what level is their forces preparedness). With limited $$$ i’m proud that ATM can still be a force-to-be-reckon-with in SEA. Maybe if ATM to face another “clear and present danger” such as Darurat II then govt of the day will listen and obey more to our field commanders needs and wants. BTW,isn’t now the threats for ATM are non-nation entity (terrorism), territorial disputes (spratly, ambalat, etc), cyber attacks?

Reply
Assymetric threats are at the forefront of our current situation but preparing for it also cost a bomb and required deftness and quick response. It is also important to consider multi-role capabilities to prevent redundancies and obsolescence. For example, an MPA procured must be able to undertake surface and sub-surface; land and maritime and conventional and non-conventional targets. It will be more expensive of course but we may be able to defend against a variety of threats. Again, I understand mass is another important principle of warfare but for example, 20 MPA armed to the hilt against naval targets is useless against the threats posed by, for example, pirates bent on taking hostages in tourist islands. Five multi-role MPA would be able to much more in such scenario and would also be tackle in conventional maritime threats. In an ideal world, we should be getting 20 multi-role MPAs due to our extensive coastline but the reality is we cannot even get even five. Yes armed drones are also desirable but the US will probably not sell us the Reaper.
Azlan says:

September 18, 2012 at 11:04 am

Mustaffa,

In a 2006 interview with … the RMAF Chief said the long term requirement was for 6 squadrons of fighters.

Kamal,

A model of the training ships was displayed at LIMA. Very basic sensors fit, a 30mm in the ‘A’ position, 2 pedestal mounts for MGs and a heli-deck.
kamal says:

September 18, 2012 at 11:45 am

Talking about the AV8, unconfirmed sources in the internet stated that FNSS & BAE supplied the hull plus engine for USD559 million of the 257 AVB. Giving a unit cost of USd2.17 mill. The Denel 30 mm cuppola contract is estimated around USD150 mil i think for about 50-70 version. FNSS 25mm cuppola not sure how much. Say assuming before maintenance and supports, around USD5 mil per piece. IMHO if u want an IFV with good firepower, might as well order some more PT91 M

Reply
Aah, but then you need to replace the turret to carry the troops…
... says:

September 18, 2012 at 3:13 pm

So from open source the AV8 program should cost around RM4Bil. Can the rakyat know why does the gov’t pay RM8bil for them?

IMHO from that RM8Bil perportedly paid for the AV8 the army sould be getting
1) the 257 AV8 (of course without the what? 100% markup)
2) 2nd batch of 48 PT91 (new or rebuilt polish tanks) for less than RM1bil
3) 120 more new ACV300 adnan with cockerill CSE90 turret(along with its 90mm gun) canibalised from the Sibmas and modernised (for the armoured cavalry)
4) 28 medium transport heli for the army (off the shelf heli’s please, AW139 is okay)

Reply
Its technically around RM7.6 billion ceiling price, meaning it could be cheaper and the 100 % mark-up is misleading.. But since when such deals had gone much lower than the ceiling price? Only once the whole fleet is delivered we will know the exact price
Azlan says:

September 18, 2012 at 3:15 pm

If I’m not mistaken the Denel turrets was ordered in only 2 versions – a standard one with a 30mm auto-cannon and a version with Ingwe [2 or 4 missiles per turret?] and a 30mm auto-cannon. What surprised me was the decision to order 54 versions with Ingwee. The interesting question which off course we can’t answer, is whether we originally decided on 54 or was there a last minute decision to increase it due to the knowledge that the TNI-AD was getting Leopard 2s and that some of them would probable end up in East Kalimantan. I was looking at the photo of the Denel turret that Marhalim took at DSA and I noticed that it has a 360 degree gunners panoramic sight.
FareedLHS says:

September 18, 2012 at 9:09 pm

nimitz,

“hell, no nation will acknowledge publicly at what level is their forces preparedness”

While no nation will ever reveal all of its cards, most Western nations do publicly report on their force readiness. US military reporting requirements, for example, are extensive. There is even an evaluation tool called the Defense Readiness Reporting System. Readiness reports (both classified and public) are routinely released by Congress. Imagine if such a system was implemented for the Malaysian armed forces? Of course, for reasons that do not need to be explained, this will never happen…

For further reading on readiness assessments in the US military, see page 8-9 “Two Types of Mission Assessments”:

http://www.gao.gov/assets/320/319276.pdf

Marhalim,

“Only once the whole fleet is delivered we will know the exact price”

That is like sending your teenager food shopping with your credit card and not knowing what he is going to bring back or how much it will cost. In fact, you might never find out what exactly is in the bag or how much it cost (rahsia). Actually, I might be inclined to trust the teenagers more than politicians.

On another note, if a decision is not made on the MRCA within the next 2-3 years, options will start to become limited. Quoted from a recent defence article:

“The big questions revolve around line preservation,” says Richard Aboulafia, vice president of the Teal Group consultancy. “How do they keep the F/A-18E/F going beyond 2015? Is it down to Kuwait, Brazil, Malaysia, and the United Arab Emirates? How much hope do they have in any of these?”

Reply
The US do report on its preparedness as it detailed the X amount of money to keep X of planes flying in a financial year so they got bean counters to come in to ensure these goals are kept to ensure the money was spent as requested. Most of these things are made public by various sources including the forces themselves. The only thing they keep secret are the ones involving nuclear weapons and other classified stuff. Even for this things there are oversight committee some of which are completely secret.

As for the issue of the AV8. Since payment will be made for the duration of two Malaysia plans (or more) it is only logical the actual price programme will be known once the whole fleet is delivered. I agree that the practise is prone to abuse but we have yet to evolve into the multi-year procurement programme which is also prone to cost over-runs due to what the Americans like to refer to as “mission creep”
kamal says:

September 19, 2012 at 10:21 am

the av8 with Ingwe going against the Leopard 2A4? With the dense jungle i doubt the ingwe can be used at its maximum range. The closer the AV8 to the leopard, the higher chances it would get smack first by the 120mm gun. Plus the indon also have a squadron of dedicated attack heli in terms of MIL 35 that would do the scouting first. But this is just simplistic assumptions
FareedLHS says:

September 19, 2012 at 7:08 pm

IMO, the best, and most economical, defence in the East is highly mobile light infantry equipped with advanced ATGMs and man-portable SAMs. Attack supply lines, rear echelon areas, etc. Tanks can’t move forward without fuel and infantry can’t fight without resupply.

Re: F-35 costs and delays

The F-35 program is a perfect example of how not to conduct a combat aircraft program.
loreng says:

September 19, 2012 at 10:38 pm

What is the point of talking about transparency and accountability when we do not accept criticisms that is meant to correct glaring shortcomings such as the situation of combat vehicles in the combat units.Through our elected representatives we could exert pressure to the government of the day to do something about it.The military needs this kind of support from the public to pressure decision- makers to act in a rational manner.As long as we do not touch on military plans, highlighting equipment/vehicle deficiencies openly would be to the public interest.Just look at the British press, how they critisized their MOD openly for the shortages of equipment in Iraq and Afghanistan experienced by the British Army.It is time we grow up, and allow the public to play a role which could be beneficial to the well-being of the MAF.

Reply
Because we have yet to see the wood and trees. We haven’t figured out that the best way to deal with the rakyat money is to show how it is spend. There is no need for sugar coated tales, bad things will always smell!
loreng says:

September 19, 2012 at 11:01 pm

kamal, I agree with your observation on the Ingwee anti-tank missiles being mounted on the AV8x8.Our jungle terrain with dense vegetation and thick foliage, a dismounted anti-tank parties would be a better option.It could move in stealth away from the roads, forward of the FEBA (Forward Edge Battle Area)to provide anti-tank screen to the Cavalry Regiments doing reconnaissance missions.It will give a big headache to the enemy commander!

Reply
We cannot put all our eggs in one basket. What if the enemy does not want to play with our rules. What if they used their mobility to drive to the centre of gravity and parked their tank on the state assembly.? What will the soldiers in the jungle do? That the best way to kill a tank is with a tank!
nimitz says:

September 20, 2012 at 4:35 am

Armed Forces Day was celebrated where this year? Mainland China is flexing at Spratly, Indonesia up-gunning with bigger quantity arms buys, Thailand stationing a large COIN force at their south provinces similar to the Philippines,SG n Brunei toyed with new superior stuffs…while we are commenting on on-off-on arms procurements. I wonder why ATM did not seek warships from India?

Reply
It will be at Dataran Merdeka, this Saturday or Sunday. We have not buy warships from India as they have not been actively been selling them but I guess if we asked they would be willing to do so. We have been buying parts from India for the Alouette helicopters for some time now. India has also been trying to sell us the Brahmos now but we have yet to consider it seriously.
... says:

September 20, 2012 at 8:33 am

Ships from India?

With their reputation for delays and red tape, it is better for us to buy ships from Korea.

Talking about ships from korea, IMO the latest TLDM training ship is just the ideal size for APMM’s OPV, or even additional OPV’s for TLDM. With its price of only 1/6 of a Kedah-class ship (it costs RM149mil), it is cheap enough to be bought in quantity and modifying the (assumed) training space next to the helideck for a hangar, it is just nice for patrol duty.
Azlan says:

September 20, 2012 at 11:17 am

I can’t see what advantage there would be, in buying ships from India. As it is, a number of IN projects have been plagued by cost overruns and delays. A much better bet would be buying from South Korean shipyards, who have a better track record and are known for their fast delivery schedules. The days are gone when ships made in South Korea had poor build standards and poor sea keeping , e.g, Marikh and the Mahawangsa. But off course all this is not going to happen as the government wants RMN ships to be built in local shipyards.

The best solution would be for small and mobile ATGW teams [on 4x4s and bikes] to work in concert with motorised and mec units. The whole point of having a AT variant of the Av8 is so it can keep pace with other motorised and mec units, granted the terrain in the Tawau area may not be conducive for fast moving operations but in the Peninsular, where there is a road network linking all urban areas, things will be different. In a perfect world, the AV8 fitted with Ingwee, would not go head on against MBTs or IFVs but would operate from flanks and would utilise terrain and vegetation for concealment and surprise. I for one am very [pleasantly] surprised that the Denel turrets are fitted with a panoramic sight, this provides the vehicle commander With much better SA.
kamal says:

September 20, 2012 at 12:30 pm

just a wet dream of mine= The polish is storaging 380 1980′s built T72M. If we could get for 1USD say 100 of it and spend another USD1 million each to upgrade it partially to PT91 Twardy standards or the indian vijayanta upgrade, walla, we have additinal 100 AFV for a fraction of a cost and still good for atleast another 10 years. It would give our neighbour more to think about hahahahhaha
FareedLHS says:

September 20, 2012 at 6:33 pm

kamal,

That’s actually not a bad idea. As they say, beggars cannot be choosers.
kamal says:

September 20, 2012 at 8:44 pm

Yep the training ships by ngv tech looks promising. At RM150 million a piece looks cheap but i doubt it has a Combat management system, air search radar and not to mention necessary wiring for missiles or even guns. Include all that another RM150 million, say around RM300 million a piece. For an OPV i guess still reasonable.
Azlan says:

September 22, 2012 at 3:12 pm

kamal,

It has no space for missiles and already has [or will have] a MSI 30mm gun, which already is in use on the Lekiu class and selected for the LCS.
I assume the 30mm gun that is going on the training ship and the LCS will be the same as the ones fitted on the Daring class, which is an improved model of the ones on the Lekiu class.
nimitz says:

September 24, 2012 at 12:51 am

India warships is inclined towards Russian designs, while ROK to US designs. I know majority of TLDM warships are Euro designs. TUDM & TD have their shares of Russian equipment. If TLDM agreed to operate India-built warship, I see that geographically India will be the nearest supplier to TLDM. Yeah…add another logistic tail/headache into TLDM, due to equipment origin of india and russian which may be dissimilar to current euro/US stuff.

Happy Malaysia Day and Armed Forces Day

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