Indonesia getting Hercules planes and Leopard MBTs too

PETALING JAYA: Indonesia is getting 4 C-130 Hercules aircraft as a gift from Australia.

From The Australian.
“AUSTRALIA is handing over two refurbished C-130 Hercules aircraft to Indonesia, boosting Jakarta’s ability to patrol for asylum boats and assist in maritime emergencies.

The C-130H models are the first of four surplus Hercules planes to be given to the Indonesian Air Force in ready-to-fly condition, Defence Minister Stephen Smith said in Darwin.

The H-models are being phased out by Australia, but are still in service with the US Coast Guard for long-range maritime patrol and search and rescue.’

The Royal Australian Air Force retired its eight C-130H Hercules on June 30, 2012 to save costs. Apart from the J version and the C17s, the Aussies have also announced C27 Spartan transport aircraft as the replacement for the Caribou.

With the inclusion of the Hercules, some observers will undoubtedly say that the Indonesians are on an arms buying spree especially with the reported decision to purchase 100 Leopard 2A6 MBT from Germany.

From Asiaone
The Jakarta Post/Asia News Network
Tuesday, Jul 03, 2012

INDONESIA – The Indonesian Army has decided to procure up to 100 refurbished Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks (MBT) worth US$280 million (S$355 million) from Germany and ruled out previous plan to buy similar tanks from the Netherlands, Deputy Defence Minister Lt. Gen. (ret) Sjafrie Sjamsoeddin said on Monday.

“We chose Germany because we can have certainties in terms of time of procurement and volume to meet our needs,” Sjafrie told a press conference at his office. “We have stopped the ongoing processes with the Netherlands to let us focus on the procurement from Germany.”
The government would use foreign loans for the procurement, he added.
The Dutch government previously had issues with its parliament in the procurement plan, mainly considering alleged rampant human rights abuses in Indonesia.”

Since the Aussies have four more Hercules available why dont we get them you might ask. Perhaps that is in the works but with 4 A400M coming on-line within 3 years time, I guess its not worth the effort.

– Malaysian Defence

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27 Responses to "Indonesia getting Hercules planes and Leopard MBTs too"

cheekucai says:

July 4, 2012 at 8:49 am

Of course, the main question would be whether they would buy the complete package (with thermal sights etc) . If they are as corrupt as a nameless neighbouring country, those Leo wouldn’t have thermal sights/FCS installed, but rather be fitted later by a local ‘integration company’.
MeesterT says:

July 4, 2012 at 8:55 am

What a horrible thing to say about STK….

Reply
I thought he was talking about us….
garda says:

July 4, 2012 at 11:32 am

Being a country which is surrounded by maritime boundaries, I wonder whether the tanks could be used at great effect

Reply
Thats the one billion dollar question
Azlan says:

July 4, 2012 at 3:33 pm

They certainly can be used in the Tarakan area, where the borders meet – the fact that Indonesia is an archipelago and is surrounded by maritime boundaries is of no consequence.
The terrain in the Tawau/Tarakan area [the site of numerous engagements during the Confrontation]may not be perfect tank country but MBTs can still be used, especially with adequate engineering support. It has been suggested by Indonesians in various forums that the Leopards [for political reasons] might be based in Java and light armour [such as the Scorpions] will be sent to East Kalimantan instead. The TNI-AL, unlike the RMN, certainly has the lift capability to move the Leopards.

I won’t be surprised if the our army decides to get medium range ATGWs next…

Reply
Probably thats the reason the Army is itching to get attack helicopters.
Well even if Tarakan/Tawau area are not tank-proof country it will be a hazardous idea to fight there as shown by the fighting during the confrontation
DavidDCM says:

July 4, 2012 at 9:01 pm

The first battalion to be equipped with the Leopard 2 will be the 8th Cavalry Battalion of the Indonesian army strategic reserve (Kostrad) based in Jawa Timur. This has been pseudo-officially confirmed because the batallion in question has already began to construct their “garasi untuk tank Leopard”.

Strategic reserve batallions are all based in Java, but its their very mission profile to be quick deployable to the entire country (that’s why they are the strategic reserve…).

How they want to quickly deploy a batallion of 50-60 ton tanks is a different matter. As no aircraft is capable of doing that right now, the alternative is deployment via cargo ship. Until now, the cavalry battalions of Kostrad are equipped with air-deployable Scorpions. These will probably be transferred to another unit as soon as the Leopard is operational. And this is the reason why there are rumours these Scorpions might be moved over to Kalimantan. But it’s a rumour, completely unconfirmed so far.

Reply
They need 60 C17s to deploy the Leopards within two hours across the archipelago. But since that it is illogical they need to use a LST of course.
Ashraf says:

July 5, 2012 at 1:13 am

We’ve heard numerously the words”Ganyang Malaysia” and God knows of how much envious hate the Indons have on us. Sooner later the Ganyang stuff shall be materialize with their increasing self confident. And what are our political masters doing presently for the national defence? Nothing and they’re robbing at the budget on every opportunity available at that. We must be prepared for the unforseen danger which is keep lurking. Hope one day, the politicians shall realise before it’s too late.
Azlan says:

July 5, 2012 at 1:20 am

Prior to the arrival of the South Korean built LPDs, the TNI-ALs main means of moving heavy gear was its ex-East German Forsch class LSTs.

Reply
Based on my visit to the LPD at Imdex last year, I believe they can only carry one LCM, which is unsuitable to carry MBTs
kamal says:

July 5, 2012 at 11:15 am

More ATGM would be a short term solution but also a cheaper one, Plus less politacally sensitive. Attack heli option could invite more controversy, i guess

Reply
Its not the weapons itself, its the prestige of getting billion dollar procurement budget….even without enough funds to operate them to the max.
Faisal says:

July 5, 2012 at 12:11 pm

Maybe we should spite them by dealing with the Dutch to procure Leo’s as well. Just being cynical.
koxinga says:

July 5, 2012 at 4:35 pm

Faisal,

And the Dutch Parliament will cite Anwar and the suppression of Bersih 2.0 as reasons not to sell to Malaysia. Or anyone else. Just being more cynical.

By their ‘high’ moral standards, no one will be suitable for the Leopards and they will end up recycled, in a environmentally friendly way of course.

Reply
My guess is that the Indonesians were asking for a steep discount for the Leos. These days every Euro counts!
Azlan says:

July 5, 2012 at 7:53 pm

The best thing we could do is to proceed with our modernisation plans, based on what’s on our shopping list and what we actually need, and not to base anything in response to what others buy.

Top on the list should be Cougars, Cougars and more Cougars and LPDs or LSTs, as these are things we really need, which have actual peacetime utility. Attack helicopters are nice but are not needed at the moment.

Marhalim,

I was under the impression that the TNI-ALs LPDs can take at least a half a dozen MBTs. There is a possibility that MBTs can be carried and loaded straight on a dock.

Reply
I will have a look at the pictures I took at Imdex to confirm what I said earlier
Mustaffa says:

July 6, 2012 at 12:48 am

such heavy tank,is it suitable on their terrain. a 60 tone tank is hard to come out if stuck in mud or soft soil.plus how to menouver a huge tank in a thick jungle?or are that buying it just to compete with other nation just for the sake of owning MBTs?bt it does look good on parades tho..haha
Azlan says:

July 6, 2012 at 8:37 am

Mustaffa,

The landscape in East Kalimantan has undergone a rapid change in recent years due to logging and other activities, which means that it is more conduicive for the employment of MBTS than it was in the past. Also, engineering support will also play a vital role in making the terrain more ‘conducive’ for MBTs. Sure, you can’t deploy MBTs the way you can in the north European plains or in the Sinai, but that doesn’t mean you can’t deploy them in a SEA enviroment. Also it not so much about the weight of the tank but also ground pressure.
loreng says:

July 6, 2012 at 4:57 pm

I agree with Kamal with the ATGM solution against the Indonesian build-up in their armour offensive capability.A superior ATGM capability for the Malaysian Army such as the fire-and-forget Javelin ATGM will easily neutralize the potential threat.

Reply
Heinz Guderian wrote some 80 years ago: The tank’s most dangerous enemy is another tank. It is still partially true to day unless one has air supremacy. An integrated defence with tanks, ATGM, artillery and air power is the best solution. Since we cannot afford it the best way is to make sure we do not go to war with anyone, and if we have to, get allies to back us up. The more merrier.
loreng says:

July 7, 2012 at 5:04 am

The MBTs will need paved and laterite roads for their movement and they will be forced to move in single column and small number.
An integrated solution is readily available if only the ATGM capability is put in place quickly.
The artillery with its MLRS and 155mm projectiles are already in place.It is a cheaper solution than acquiring additional PT91s.
FareedLHS says:

July 7, 2012 at 6:50 am

In matters of defence, one must not be ‘reactive’ but ‘proactive’. I agree with Azlan’s comment: “The best thing we could do is to proceed with our modernisation plans, based on what’s on our shopping list and what we actually need, and not to base anything in response to what others buy.”. The problem is, what are the modernisation plans? And what do we need? What will the military look like in 2020? How much research, evaluation, planning, etc. has gone into that last question?

As for tanks, we can debate the effectiveness of tanks in the open, but the fact is that tanks are most likely to be used in urban combat. Outside of Desert Storm in 1991, when was the last time you heard of a major tank battle? The Leopards will seldom be seen outside of Java; Only on exercises and limited deployment.

In other news, it looks like the F-35 might be out for the Dutch… And the Gripen continues to lurk in the shadows…

Regarding the Gripen, check out the operational costs at:

http://www.stratpost.com/gripen-operational-cost-lowest-of-all-western-fighters-janes/

Also, Mediterranean 1, Rafale 0 at:

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/actualites/articles/ejection-en-mer-d-un-pilote-de-rafale

Lastly, the A400M has been reborn as the ‘Atlas’. Any word on what the type will be called in RMAF service? The name for a Greek god hardly seems fitting for Malaysia.

Marhalim,

I believe I proposed picking up the C-130Hs from Australia some time ago. Let’s see how much use and how many years the Indonesians get out of them.

Reply
In the shopping list are attack helicopters though I doubt we have enough funds for more than 12 units. Operational funds are even smaller.
Yes the Aussie Hercs are a good deal as they are in fly-able condition. Not sure whether they fit our operational needs with the A400M coming on-line soon..
The A400M could be call Big Momma in Malaysian in homage of ……LOL..or Black Bear.

On the Gripen, its lowest cost is expected since its the only Western fighter equipped with a single engine and designed from the on-set to be maintained by conscripts.
Zao says:

July 7, 2012 at 10:58 am

are you sure javelin can penetrate Leo’s armor ?
some type of ATGM can really make some type of tank go “disable”. but that only happened after a few shoot. maybe 5-10. this is “Leo” bro, not some kind of Iraqi’s “T72 wannabe”. the engineers will fix it in no time.
eagle can go “blind” and artillery always miss. when they came it’s always “too late”.
remember murphy law lol lol

tank are capable move in mud, and some “hard terrain”. it’s hardly to believe, but trust me, you never gonna believe what you see when you watch those “Leo” dance in the forest lol, never under estimate tank bro, they have “big punch” lol
the only last concern is, ammunition !!???
sabot or… ?

sorry for ma bad “english” lol lol

Reply
Yes
Zao says:

July 7, 2012 at 11:51 am

oh yeah i almost forget.
to move tanks from one island to another, you no need “your very own of LPD/LST” you can borrow or rent it from civ’s or a transport co.
nobody reject money lol
oh @loreng : “tanks” no need a paved road, that’s why the engineer give tank a continuous track, not a wheel. >the tank not the tank transporter.
and.. don’t underestimate Rheinmetall’s 120mm
DavidDCM says:

July 7, 2012 at 4:21 pm

The Leopard alone will neither win nor loose any war between these two countries. It is only one among many factors, and not the most important one. It is pretty moot to discuss whether this or that missile or this or that tank is the best way to counter it. It wont matter in reality, and we wont come to a conclusion anyway.

However, as said, Kalimantan is not the exotic impenetratable jungle that it used to be 50 years ago. It’s pervaded by streets from end to ends. Jungle has been replaced by plantations, swampy areas have been drained for construction works and urbanization. Tanks can navigate there.
matrixck says:

July 7, 2012 at 8:10 pm

ATGM not a substitute for MBT..but as complement of armour unit…you would never know the thrills those infantrymen will get,hearing the clicking sounds of MBTs’ track wheel..shoot an ATGM is not as easy as seen in movies

don’t forget..Indonesian has several LSTs beside their newest LPDs, and many civilian LCUs and Ro-ro ships…not difficult at all to deploy all MBTs

Reply
If one is hearing tracks already, an ATGM is wasted already. At short distances, an RPG or LAW is good enough even to stop them from moving forward.
loreng says:

July 7, 2012 at 9:19 pm

With their 155mm laser/GPS guided ammunition, it would be difficult for the Gunners to miss the target.Use modern technology to fight the war brother.
kamal says:

July 7, 2012 at 11:44 pm

We have 36 astross, 22 G5 roughly 100 Bakthar shikan, 100 Metis M and 48 PT91 M. Seems integrated enough but i agree with marhalim, the fund to operate, maintain and train with them may not be even 50% of what is actually needed

Reply
You forgot about the Goose (Carl Gustaf) and RPG ( – mostly in the RMR and Rangers); the Eryx (GGK and 10 Para) and the 105mm pack howitzers which could be used as an AT weapon.
Azlan says:

July 8, 2012 at 7:18 am

There remain many misconceptions about the use of MBTs. The use of MBTs by Australia, the U.S., North Vienam and South Vietnam in terrain similar to ours, offers a lot of lessons and only proves a point that MBTs CAN be used in SEA in non urban areas. Other examples of the use of MBTS was the Viet invasion of Cambodia in 1979, the border war fought betewwn Vietnam and China in 1979 and the border clash fought between Thailand and Myanmar, which saw the use of MBTS [and also the first operational use of Paveway in the region]. Yes obviously you can’t deploy and use use MBTS in non-urban areas in SEA they way you can in the Sinai or in the Fulda Gap but that doesn’t mean you can’t. Just as important as having MBTS is the need to have adequate engineering support.

Anyhow, in a Malaysian context, the availability of a modern road network linking all major cities and towns and increasing urbanisation – more housing estates, industrial areas, etc – means that in West Malaysia MBTS are more likely to be used in a urban or semi urban setting and not in the jungle. There is absolutely no reason or need why any invader would have to use the jungle in West Malaysia when there is an abundance of paved roads and highways! I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if MBTS can’t be used here, the Singaporeans would not have got their Leopards…….

Reply
Can or cannot are subjective but the know-how to employ them is much more relevant
nimitz says:

July 8, 2012 at 9:25 pm

IMO if indo want to “threaten” us with leos, it should not be tawau/tarakan but kuching/pontianak. IMO also astross,G5,PT91 all unavailable to HQ 1 Div in Penrissen, Kuching. We will see “Amazing Race” to rush those asset over from south malaya (gemas?) to kuching by sea and land. Indo activate their saboteurs (yeah, aren’t we depended on cheap labor from Indo?) to unrail the railway to JB/Seremban, disrupt traffic at PLUS,small vessel strikes from Natuna on the convoy. BTW, I don’t think indo want to push those leos across their borneo border, they have rebellion in Papua. Attack helis? hehe we should put up anti-tank ditch (remember Moscow 1941?)and wire all bridges leading to Kuching, sit it out and hope calvary come in time from malaya. Owh…jangan-jangan indo buat amphib landing di Santubong.
nimitz says:

July 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm

Good for TNI to get hand-me-down C130 from Aus becoz Aus want indo to stop illegals from sailing into australia. A history in the making, as far as i know, Aus never transfer/sell military asset to Indo (remember Confrontation, Timur Leste?). Memandangkan kita akan dapat A400M kelak, ada baiknya TLDM cadangkan 2 C-130 ex-Aus untuk MPA.
D.W says:

May 9, 2013 at 10:55 am

Update:

The German government has given approval to Rheinmetall to export Leopard 2′s & Marder IFV’s to Indonesia.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-government-approves-export-of-tanks-to-indonesia-a-898698.html
stanman says:

May 9, 2013 at 12:50 pm

Oh dear..they do know that they need MLC70 bridges for the Leo2s……right? The vast majority of theirs are MLC50 tops. But I guess they will look awesome on parade.

Indonesia getting Hercules planes and Leopard MBTs too

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